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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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hedgehog50 Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.08pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle What having the lights on? Whatever petrol it uses to charge the battery that little extra bit. Probably not a lot, but will be different once cars are all electric I imagine. More like a household light. So the hundreds of millions of cars in Europe having their lights on all the time emitting heat will not generate a lot of heat! All because some official in the EU decrees it. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

hedgehog50

Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.08pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

What having the lights on? Whatever petrol it uses to charge the battery that little extra bit. Probably not a lot, but will be different once cars are all electric I imagine. More like a household light.

So the hundreds of millions of cars in Europe having their lights on all the time emitting heat will not generate a lot of heat! All because some official in the EU decrees it.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 23 Oct 17 5.14pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 So the hundreds of millions of cars in Europe having their lights on all the time emitting heat will not generate a lot of heat! All because some official in the EU decrees it. Unless you have data I can't really say. I know there are safety reasons behind this. As I previously said, leaving the EU gives us a chance to set our own laws on things like this for cars to be used in the UK (I imagine ones sold in the EU will still have to have this feature). The question is whether we will take this opportunity to really make a difference to the environment and air quality. It's the biggest challenge we face so I'd hope so. Sadly with the current lot I think they will only make things worse. I bet for one thing the lights will still have to be on in the day!

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 23 Oct 17 5.14pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

So the hundreds of millions of cars in Europe having their lights on all the time emitting heat will not generate a lot of heat! All because some official in the EU decrees it.

Unless you have data I can't really say. I know there are safety reasons behind this.

As I previously said, leaving the EU gives us a chance to set our own laws on things like this for cars to be used in the UK (I imagine ones sold in the EU will still have to have this feature).

The question is whether we will take this opportunity to really make a difference to the environment and air quality. It's the biggest challenge we face so I'd hope so. Sadly with the current lot I think they will only make things worse. I bet for one thing the lights will still have to be on in the day!

hedgehog50 Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.21pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Unless you have data I can't really say. I know there are safety reasons behind this. As I previously said, leaving the EU gives us a chance to set our own laws on things like this for cars to be used in the UK (I imagine ones sold in the EU will still have to have this feature). The question is whether we will take this opportunity to really make a difference to the environment and air quality. It's the biggest challenge we face so I'd hope so. Sadly with the current lot I think they will only make things worse. I bet for one thing the lights will still have to be on in the day! You need data! Surely a learned chap like you can accept that lights generate heat? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

hedgehog50

Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.21pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Unless you have data I can't really say. I know there are safety reasons behind this.

As I previously said, leaving the EU gives us a chance to set our own laws on things like this for cars to be used in the UK (I imagine ones sold in the EU will still have to have this feature).

You need data! Surely a learned chap like you can accept that lights generate heat?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

Stuk Top half 23 Oct 17 5.21pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle That's totally incorrect. Evidence is clear that such schemes all over the world cause changes in behaviour. You're suggesting the congestion charge has had zero impact on volume of vehicles in the congestion zone (in fact you've said numbers have gone up). Multiple sources report the impact, here is just one: [Link] To suggest otherwise ignores fact. Data shows that the only class of vehicle showing increased activity in CC zone and wider central London and delivery vehicles due to rise in e-commerce, something that can be easily tackled by using delivery hubs around London rather than simply doing single drops offs. Removing laws and targets set by the EU that require reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and improvements in air quality will definitely make things worse and pretending otherwise is wilful ignorance. To turn a blind eye to the opportunities will make Brexit a failure. More needs to be done, not less as this government would like. Here is this government's priority: [Link] Wasting our money in a bid to avoid tacking the crisis in air quality and pollution. Here is another: Research by the AA found that despite traffic volumes falling within the zone, speeds became slower over the decade, as a result of road space being turned into bus lanes, cycle and pedestrian safety measures, and roadworks. It said that roads were now so clogged, emissions of PM10 soot particles from car tyres and brakes were greater than from exhausts because of the amount of starting and stopping. But it had raised a few billion in revenue, most of which was pissed away on the administration of it. Optimistic as ever

Stuk

Top half 23 Oct 17 5.21pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

That's totally incorrect. Evidence is clear that such schemes all over the world cause changes in behaviour. You're suggesting the congestion charge has had zero impact on volume of vehicles in the congestion zone (in fact you've said numbers have gone up).

Multiple sources report the impact, here is just one:

[Link]

To suggest otherwise ignores fact. Data shows that the only class of vehicle showing increased activity in CC zone and wider central London and delivery vehicles due to rise in e-commerce, something that can be easily tackled by using delivery hubs around London rather than simply doing single drops offs.

Removing laws and targets set by the EU that require reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and improvements in air quality will definitely make things worse and pretending otherwise is wilful ignorance.

To turn a blind eye to the opportunities will make Brexit a failure.

More needs to be done, not less as this government would like.

Here is this government's priority: [Link]

Wasting our money in a bid to avoid tacking the crisis in air quality and pollution.

Here is another: Research by the AA found that despite traffic volumes falling within the zone, speeds became slower over the decade, as a result of road space being turned into bus lanes, cycle and pedestrian safety measures, and roadworks.

It said that roads were now so clogged, emissions of PM10 soot particles from car tyres and brakes were greater than from exhausts because of the amount of starting and stopping.

But it had raised a few billion in revenue, most of which was pissed away on the administration of it.

Optimistic as ever

Stuk Top half 23 Oct 17 5.27pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle It is achievable. Not meeting targets at first is no reason for throwing in the towel or whinging. The exact opposite in fact. Unlike Brexit this is easy to do and would in fact be one of the easiest deals in history. What rubbish. The whole point is that the government is meant to set laws and create the incentives for everyone and set an example. We all need to do more, but the government more than any single person as they have the power to do so. Who's been suggesting the public should do this all by themselves? My point has been in my posts that this will soon become the responsibility of our government and their stance will be to make things worse when they should be tackling the problem. It's not achievable, we'll have to disagree. I'm not doing more (i.e. paying more) while the rest of the planet are wilfully f***ing it up far more than I am. Once the government are zero polluting they can ask the rest of us to follow suit, should the far bigger emitting countries sort their acts out too. Until then, it's a revenue raising task and nothing more. Optimistic as ever

Stuk

Top half 23 Oct 17 5.27pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

It is achievable. Not meeting targets at first is no reason for throwing in the towel or whinging. The exact opposite in fact. Unlike Brexit this is easy to do and would in fact be one of the easiest deals in history.

What rubbish. The whole point is that the government is meant to set laws and create the incentives for everyone and set an example. We all need to do more, but the government more than any single person as they have the power to do so. Who's been suggesting the public should do this all by themselves? My point has been in my posts that this will soon become the responsibility of our government and their stance will be to make things worse when they should be tackling the problem.

It's not achievable, we'll have to disagree.

I'm not doing more (i.e. paying more) while the rest of the planet are wilfully f***ing it up far more than I am. Once the government are zero polluting they can ask the rest of us to follow suit, should the far bigger emitting countries sort their acts out too. Until then, it's a revenue raising task and nothing more.

Optimistic as ever

Stuk Top half 23 Oct 17 5.29pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle I believe the criteria for T-charge is based on a car's "Euro" rating. So has to be at least Euro-4, rising to Euro-6 in a few years to avoid the charge. The Euro ratings are also designed to become more stringent over time. This demonstrates the issue. We could be more bold by having much better UK car ratings and stopping high polluting vehicles from going into urban areas once we leave the EU. The government could though forget about it and allow dangerous vehicles where they like. There are huge numbers of schools in London in areas with illegally high and dangerous levels of pollution. These also happen to be schools with higher percentages of free school meals and the report was only recently published, having been suppressed by Boris: [Link] Serious problem, which requires serious solutions. Outside the EU I think we stand at serious risk of it getting worse, but there is real opportunity to make it better. It is. Why isn't it based on real world emissions? A euro 6 engine can easily pollute more than a euro 3 or 4 engine depending on the car, fuel etc. Optimistic as ever

Stuk

Top half 23 Oct 17 5.29pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

I believe the criteria for T-charge is based on a car's "Euro" rating. So has to be at least Euro-4, rising to Euro-6 in a few years to avoid the charge. The Euro ratings are also designed to become more stringent over time.

This demonstrates the issue. We could be more bold by having much better UK car ratings and stopping high polluting vehicles from going into urban areas once we leave the EU. The government could though forget about it and allow dangerous vehicles where they like.

There are huge numbers of schools in London in areas with illegally high and dangerous levels of pollution. These also happen to be schools with higher percentages of free school meals and the report was only recently published, having been suppressed by Boris:

[Link]

Serious problem, which requires serious solutions. Outside the EU I think we stand at serious risk of it getting worse, but there is real opportunity to make it better.

It is. Why isn't it based on real world emissions? A euro 6 engine can easily pollute more than a euro 3 or 4 engine depending on the car, fuel etc.

Optimistic as ever

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 23 Oct 17 5.34pm
The Conservative government is hiding more than 50 Brexit reports not only from the public, but from parliament. Former Brexit minister David Jones has confirmed that the Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) has “conducted analysis of over 50 sectors of the economy”. Apparently there's going to be a foi case in court to try and get the documents released. Are they not being released because they paint an Armageddonesque picture or do they need to keep it secret for other reasons?

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 23 Oct 17 5.34pm

The Conservative government is hiding more than 50 Brexit reports not only from the public, but from parliament. Former Brexit minister David Jones has confirmed that the Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) has “conducted analysis of over 50 sectors of the economy”.

Apparently there's going to be a foi case in court to try and get the documents released.

Are they not being released because they paint an Armageddonesque picture or do they need to keep it secret for other reasons?

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.29pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 You need data! Surely a learned chap like you can accept that lights generate heat? Yes, but the main heat related issue is greenhouse gases causing heat from the sun to be retained and causing global warming. The far bigger issue with cars is emissions and what that does not only in terms of CO2 but also to our bodies in terms of Nitrous Oxide and other harmful particulates. Despite me pointing out opportunities with Brexit you seem to be simply arguing over something quite trivial.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.29pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

You need data! Surely a learned chap like you can accept that lights generate heat?

Yes, but the main heat related issue is greenhouse gases causing heat from the sun to be retained and causing global warming.

The far bigger issue with cars is emissions and what that does not only in terms of CO2 but also to our bodies in terms of Nitrous Oxide and other harmful particulates.

Despite me pointing out opportunities with Brexit you seem to be simply arguing over something quite trivial.

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.34pm
Originally posted by Stuk Here is another: Research by the AA found that despite traffic volumes falling within the zone, speeds became slower over the decade, as a result of road space being turned into bus lanes, cycle and pedestrian safety measures, and roadworks. It said that roads were now so clogged, emissions of PM10 soot particles from car tyres and brakes were greater than from exhausts because of the amount of starting and stopping. But it had raised a few billion in revenue, most of which was pissed away on the administration of it. AA certainly don't have an agenda do they? Clearly the answer is to ban cars from central London altogether (I'm in favour). The data shows there are fewer cars since the CC was brought in. All revenue is spent either on admin of the system or put into public transport. This is a good thing. The T-charge is predicted by the Mayor not to make any money in excess of the costs of admin but the change in behaviour is worth it as it will improve the air quality in central London. When the Low Emission zone is pushed out to the N&S Circulars this will be a good thing. The issue is there is not enough space to cope with all the traffic in central London and the big issue has been the addition of considerable numbers of delivery vehicles. This is a relatively new trend and one that needs addressing. Indeed many new developments as part of planning restrictions aren't allowed mail rooms on site and must have dedicated delivery hubs outside central London to try and tackle this issue. It's clearly a problem and anything to help it should be welcome but we need to go further.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.34pm

Originally posted by Stuk

It said that roads were now so clogged, emissions of PM10 soot particles from car tyres and brakes were greater than from exhausts because of the amount of starting and stopping.

But it had raised a few billion in revenue, most of which was pissed away on the administration of it.

AA certainly don't have an agenda do they?

Clearly the answer is to ban cars from central London altogether (I'm in favour).

The data shows there are fewer cars since the CC was brought in. All revenue is spent either on admin of the system or put into public transport. This is a good thing. The T-charge is predicted by the Mayor not to make any money in excess of the costs of admin but the change in behaviour is worth it as it will improve the air quality in central London. When the Low Emission zone is pushed out to the N&S Circulars this will be a good thing.

The issue is there is not enough space to cope with all the traffic in central London and the big issue has been the addition of considerable numbers of delivery vehicles. This is a relatively new trend and one that needs addressing. Indeed many new developments as part of planning restrictions aren't allowed mail rooms on site and must have dedicated delivery hubs outside central London to try and tackle this issue.

It's clearly a problem and anything to help it should be welcome but we need to go further.

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.39pm
Originally posted by Stuk It's not achievable, we'll have to disagree. I'm not doing more (i.e. paying more) while the rest of the planet are wilfully f***ing it up far more than I am. Once the government are zero polluting they can ask the rest of us to follow suit, should the far bigger emitting countries sort their acts out too. Until then, it's a revenue raising task and nothing more. That's a ridiculous attitude. The point is the government set the law and set and example and create incentives for people. You're demonstrating the lack of incentives, but cutting of your nose to spite your face seems foolish. You should be concerned about this and keen to see progress made so your kids and their kids don't end up seeing their life expectancy fall (already happening by the way) and their health suffer. Calling it a revenue raising task and nothing more is ignorant of the whole idea and the outcomes and direction of travel. There is seriously no point in Brexit if this is the attitude. We need to have the desire to be world leaders in this kind of area for this to be a success. We need to be more efficient, greener and more equal a society. This government is making a hash of it.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.39pm

Originally posted by Stuk

It's not achievable, we'll have to disagree.

That's a ridiculous attitude. The point is the government set the law and set and example and create incentives for people. You're demonstrating the lack of incentives, but cutting of your nose to spite your face seems foolish. You should be concerned about this and keen to see progress made so your kids and their kids don't end up seeing their life expectancy fall (already happening by the way) and their health suffer.

Calling it a revenue raising task and nothing more is ignorant of the whole idea and the outcomes and direction of travel.

There is seriously no point in Brexit if this is the attitude. We need to have the desire to be world leaders in this kind of area for this to be a success. We need to be more efficient, greener and more equal a society. This government is making a hash of it.

elgrande bedford 23 Oct 17 6.41pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle AA certainly don't have an agenda do they? Clearly the answer is to ban cars from central London altogether (I'm in favour). The data shows there are fewer cars since the CC was brought in. All revenue is spent either on admin of the system or put into public transport. This is a good thing. The T-charge is predicted by the Mayor not to make any money in excess of the costs of admin but the change in behaviour is worth it as it will improve the air quality in central London. When the Low Emission zone is pushed out to the N&S Circulars this will be a good thing. The issue is there is not enough space to cope with all the traffic in central London and the big issue has been the addition of considerable numbers of delivery vehicles. This is a relatively new trend and one that needs addressing. Indeed many new developments as part of planning restrictions aren't allowed mail rooms on site and must have dedicated delivery hubs outside central London to try and tackle this issue. It's clearly a problem and anything to help it should be welcome but we need to go further. Do you use shops,supermarkets,have parcels delivered. I deliver in my lorry into london on a Friday (before that 30 cab driver). Things need to be delivered people need to go from a to b. always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

elgrande

bedford 23 Oct 17 6.41pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

AA certainly don't have an agenda do they?

Clearly the answer is to ban cars from central London altogether (I'm in favour).

It's clearly a problem and anything to help it should be welcome but we need to go further.

Do you use shops,supermarkets,have parcels delivered.
I deliver in my lorry into london on a Friday (before that 30 cab driver).
Things need to be delivered people need to go from a to b.

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.44pm
Originally posted by Stuk It is. Why isn't it based on real world emissions? A euro 6 engine can easily pollute more than a euro 3 or 4 engine depending on the car, fuel etc. Euro ratings do set limits on exhaust emissions for Carbon monoxide, Hydrocarbons, Nitrogen oxide and Particulate matter in grams per km. How else do you suggest it's done? By stopping and testing each car by the side of the road as it enters the CC zone? "According to figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT), the Euro emissions have had a significant influence in reducing emissions."

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.44pm

Originally posted by Stuk

It is. Why isn't it based on real world emissions? A euro 6 engine can easily pollute more than a euro 3 or 4 engine depending on the car, fuel etc.

Euro ratings do set limits on exhaust emissions for Carbon monoxide, Hydrocarbons, Nitrogen oxide and Particulate matter in grams per km.

How else do you suggest it's done? By stopping and testing each car by the side of the road as it enters the CC zone?

"According to figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT), the Euro emissions have had a significant influence in reducing emissions."

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.50pm
Originally posted by elgrande Do you use shops,supermarkets,have parcels delivered. I deliver in my lorry into london on a Friday (before that 30 cab driver). Things need to be delivered people need to go from a to b. Soon enough private cars and most delivery vehicles will be all but banned from central London. The way planning is going offices will have to have a delivery centre outside the centre of London and then a single delivery will be made once a day at most. This has happened with 22 Bishopsgate already. People can get from a to b via public transport or on foot or bike. Cars won't be around for too much longer.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 23 Oct 17 6.50pm

Originally posted by elgrande

Do you use shops,supermarkets,have parcels delivered.
I deliver in my lorry into london on a Friday (before that 30 cab driver).
Things need to be delivered people need to go from a to b.

Soon enough private cars and most delivery vehicles will be all but banned from central London.

The way planning is going offices will have to have a delivery centre outside the centre of London and then a single delivery will be made once a day at most. This has happened with 22 Bishopsgate already.

People can get from a to b via public transport or on foot or bike. Cars won't be around for too much longer.

elgrande bedford 23 Oct 17 7.14pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Soon enough private cars and most delivery vehicles will be all but banned from central London. The way planning is going offices will have to have a delivery centre outside the centre of London and then a single delivery will be made once a day at most. This has happened with 22 Bishopsgate already. People can get from a to b via public transport or on foot or bike. Cars won't be around for too much longer. Shops and supermarkets sometimes have more tban one delivery a day. You will always have to have deliveries,consumets buy the products,shelfs need re filling. always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

elgrande

bedford 23 Oct 17 7.14pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Soon enough private cars and most delivery vehicles will be all but banned from central London.

People can get from a to b via public transport or on foot or bike. Cars won't be around for too much longer.

Shops and supermarkets sometimes have more tban one delivery a day.
You will always have to have deliveries,consumets buy the products,shelfs need re filling.

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 23 Oct 17 7.36pm
Originally posted by elgrande Shops and supermarkets sometimes have more tban one delivery a day. You will always have to have deliveries,consumets buy the products,shelfs need re filling. Drones ...

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 23 Oct 17 7.36pm

Originally posted by elgrande

Shops and supermarkets sometimes have more tban one delivery a day.
You will always have to have deliveries,consumets buy the products,shelfs need re filling.

Drones ...

hedgehog50 Croydon 23 Oct 17 8.11pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Drones ... What, legaleagle going into the delivery business? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

hedgehog50

Croydon 23 Oct 17 8.11pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Drones ...

What, legaleagle going into the delivery business?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

elgrande bedford 23 Oct 17 9.07pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Drones ... Yeah nice one, an artic load of deliveries dropped from a drone. always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

elgrande

bedford 23 Oct 17 9.07pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Drones ...

Yeah nice one, an artic load of deliveries dropped from a drone.

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

tome Inner Tantalus Time. 23 Oct 17 9.15pm
Won't future electric cars (and presumably trucks) address the emissions issue? A one and a two...

tome

Inner Tantalus Time. 23 Oct 17 9.15pm

Won't future electric cars (and presumably trucks) address the emissions issue?

A one and a two...

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 23 Oct 17 9.25pm
Originally posted by tome Won't future electric cars (and presumably trucks) address the emissions issue? [Link]

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 23 Oct 17 9.25pm

Originally posted by tome

Won't future electric cars (and presumably trucks) address the emissions issue?

[Link]

steeleye20 Croydon 23 Oct 17 9.32pm
Originally posted by tome Won't future electric cars (and presumably trucks) address the emissions issue? Hydrogen fuel cells are the way forward according to the Toyota UK Chairman, as electric cars have huge carbon footprint needing power stations galore. I saw a Dutch solar powered car at the weekend a prototype so the boundaries are being pushed all the time. Who knows in 2040 electric cars may well be obsolete. How the earth was created I don't know but everything was provided, the sun the wind, foolish mankind just goes on its destructive path.

steeleye20

Croydon 23 Oct 17 9.32pm

Originally posted by tome

Won't future electric cars (and presumably trucks) address the emissions issue?

Hydrogen fuel cells are the way forward according to the Toyota UK Chairman, as electric cars have huge carbon footprint needing power stations galore.

I saw a Dutch solar powered car at the weekend a prototype so the boundaries are being pushed all the time.

Who knows in 2040 electric cars may well be obsolete.

How the earth was created I don't know but everything was provided, the sun the wind, foolish mankind just goes on its destructive path.

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