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May 29 2022 9.20am

Confederate Flag

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View mcduh's Profile mcduh Flag 22 Jul 15 6.41pm Send a Private Message to mcduh Add mcduh as a friend

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 6.17pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 5.05pm

I'm going to try and give the teaching up...Apply for something else...Here goes a big effort during the six week window.

Best news I've heard since the beginning of this thread. There's now renewed hope for the future English school population. If you continue maybe you could wear a disclaimer.


Edited by MikeT (22 Jul 2015 6.19pm)


Honestly. What a stupid thing for someone to be defending so vigorously. But then again, the "there's no white privilege if my boss isn't white" thing, and the "I'm going to wear the Confederate flag just to piss people like you off" thing.

Ever since the amazing Ku Klux Klan rally footage appeared the other day, whenever I see stirling post I hear sousaphone accompaniment. Derp derp, the flag means different things and deserves a disclaimer derp derp.

[Link]

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 22 Jul 15 6.46pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 6.17pm

Best news I've heard since the beginning of this thread. There's now renewed hope for the future English school population. If you continue maybe you could wear a disclaimer.


Edited by MikeT (22 Jul 2015 6.19pm)


Mmmm....Personal and nasty.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 22 Jul 15 6.55pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote mcduh at 22 Jul 2015 6.41pm

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 6.17pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 5.05pm

I'm going to try and give the teaching up...Apply for something else...Here goes a big effort during the six week window.

Best news I've heard since the beginning of this thread. There's now renewed hope for the future English school population. If you continue maybe you could wear a disclaimer.


Edited by MikeT (22 Jul 2015 6.19pm)


Honestly. What a stupid thing for someone to be defending so vigorously. But then again, the "there's no white privilege if my boss isn't white" thing, and the "I'm going to wear the Confederate flag just to piss people like you off" thing.

Ever since the amazing Ku Klux Klan rally footage appeared the other day, whenever I see stirling post I hear sousaphone accompaniment. Derp derp, the flag means different things and deserves a disclaimer derp derp.

[Link]


There is a right to fly that particular flag. Whether you think its stupid or not matters not a lot.

I think anyone who connects me to the KKK is frankly a fool.

In fact I think we best not communicate anymore.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View mcduh's Profile mcduh Flag 22 Jul 15 6.59pm Send a Private Message to mcduh Add mcduh as a friend

When you stop coming up with novel (to you, but incredibly trite, outdated, and at this point in history tasteless) ways to defend the Confederate flag, I will stop having things to say about how ignorant that makes you.

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Walmart, NASCAR, the gridiron coach of the University of South Carolina, and Mitt Romney have all decided that it's time has passed. You're getting lonelier by the minute.

 

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View mcduh's Profile mcduh Flag 22 Jul 15 7.02pm Send a Private Message to mcduh Add mcduh as a friend

By the way, I don't connect you to the Ku Klux Klan because whether or not you're an outright racist, you don't seem to be the type who would make a public display of it.

I connect you with the sousaphone soundtrack coming from the sidewalk as the flags flap freely in the street because they have a right to.

 

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View kingdowieonthewall's Profile kingdowieonthewall Flag Sussex, ex-Cronx. 22 Jul 15 7.02pm Send a Private Message to kingdowieonthewall Add kingdowieonthewall as a friend

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 6.17pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 5.05pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 4.10pm

I know Stirling, you forget us primary lot teach all curriculum subjects (notwithstanding the fact that secondary teachers also do as a result of the complete ignorance of the concept of 'rarely cover' to save costs) The picture was the first that appeared in a search.

And yes, I know the symbol is reversed. (I wonder how many Germans flew the flag upside down in ignorance? What did Nazi Hindus and Buddhists do?)


I'm going to try and give the teaching up...Apply for something else...Here goes a big effort during the six week window.

Best news I've heard since the beginning of this thread. There's now renewed hope for the future English school population. If you continue maybe you could wear a disclaimer.


Edited by MikeT (22 Jul 2015 6.19pm)


very rude.
what does the T stand for.

 


Kids,tired of being bothered by your pesky parents?
Then leave home, get a job & pay your own bills, while you still know everything.

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View MikeT's Profile MikeT Flag Burlington (Toronto Area) 22 Jul 15 7.56pm Send a Private Message to MikeT Add MikeT as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 6.46pm

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 6.17pm

Best news I've heard since the beginning of this thread. There's now renewed hope for the future English school population. If you continue maybe you could wear a disclaimer.


Edited by MikeT (22 Jul 2015 6.19pm)


Mmmm....Personal and nasty.

The HF took less than a week (between the Man City and Liverpool games in May 2014)to be convinced that the overriding connotations of this flag were white supremacist and should not be associated with our club.

In the face of mountains of overwhelming evidence you've continued for over a year to spout this incredibly individualized logic to add a disclaimer to this flag.

And this is what is, and continues to be really personal and nasty.

[Link]

[Link]

Suggest your personal disclaimer should be "Impervious to simple reason".


 

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View MikeT's Profile MikeT Flag Burlington (Toronto Area) 22 Jul 15 8.17pm Send a Private Message to MikeT Add MikeT as a friend

Quote kingdowieonthewall at 22 Jul 2015 7.02pm

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 6.17pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 5.05pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 4.10pm

I know Stirling, you forget us primary lot teach all curriculum subjects (notwithstanding the fact that secondary teachers also do as a result of the complete ignorance of the concept of 'rarely cover' to save costs) The picture was the first that appeared in a search.

And yes, I know the symbol is reversed. (I wonder how many Germans flew the flag upside down in ignorance? What did Nazi Hindus and Buddhists do?)


I'm going to try and give the teaching up...Apply for something else...Here goes a big effort during the six week window.

Best news I've heard since the beginning of this thread. There's now renewed hope for the future English school population. If you continue maybe you could wear a disclaimer.


Edited by MikeT (22 Jul 2015 6.19pm)


very rude.
what does the T stand for.

Not normally rude, but this is a special case. Assume you've read all the 28 pages of this thread?

The T is as irrelevant as the 'Says' in Sterling or the 'wall' in kingdowieonthe.


 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 22 Jul 15 8.22pm

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 8.17pm

Quote kingdowieonthewall at 22 Jul 2015 7.02pm

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 6.17pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 5.05pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 4.10pm

I know Stirling, you forget us primary lot teach all curriculum subjects (notwithstanding the fact that secondary teachers also do as a result of the complete ignorance of the concept of 'rarely cover' to save costs) The picture was the first that appeared in a search.

And yes, I know the symbol is reversed. (I wonder how many Germans flew the flag upside down in ignorance? What did Nazi Hindus and Buddhists do?)


I'm going to try and give the teaching up...Apply for something else...Here goes a big effort during the six week window.

Best news I've heard since the beginning of this thread. There's now renewed hope for the future English school population. If you continue maybe you could wear a disclaimer.


Edited by MikeT (22 Jul 2015 6.19pm)


very rude.
what does the T stand for.

Not normally rude, but this is a special case. Assume you've read all the 28 pages of this thread?

The T is as irrelevant as the 'Says' in Sterling or the 'wall' in kingdowieonthe.


Stirling and I are diammetrically opposed politically speaking. But we both know that personal politics isn't taken into the confines of the clasroom. Be unprofessional if it happened.

 

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View MikeT's Profile MikeT Flag Burlington (Toronto Area) 22 Jul 15 8.40pm Send a Private Message to MikeT Add MikeT as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 8.22pm

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 8.17pm

Quote kingdowieonthewall at 22 Jul 2015 7.02pm

Quote MikeT at 22 Jul 2015 6.17pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 5.05pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 4.10pm

I know Stirling, you forget us primary lot teach all curriculum subjects (notwithstanding the fact that secondary teachers also do as a result of the complete ignorance of the concept of 'rarely cover' to save costs) The picture was the first that appeared in a search.

And yes, I know the symbol is reversed. (I wonder how many Germans flew the flag upside down in ignorance? What did Nazi Hindus and Buddhists do?)


I'm going to try and give the teaching up...Apply for something else...Here goes a big effort during the six week window.

Best news I've heard since the beginning of this thread. There's now renewed hope for the future English school population. If you continue maybe you could wear a disclaimer.


Edited by MikeT (22 Jul 2015 6.19pm)


very rude.
what does the T stand for.

Not normally rude, but this is a special case. Assume you've read all the 28 pages of this thread?

The T is as irrelevant as the 'Says' in Sterling or the 'wall' in kingdowieonthe.


Stirling and I are diammetrically opposed politically speaking. But we both know that personal politics isn't taken into the confines of the clasroom. Be unprofessional if it happened.

I grant the professionalism of you both, Nick. But this wasn't about personal politics at all, it was about an exasperating absence of reason in the face of an overwhelming amount of evidence.


 

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 22 Jul 15 8.47pm Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 4.52pm

Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 3.36pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 2.37pm

Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 2.19pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am

This is a matter of freedom of expression for me.

I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that.

However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association.

It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like.

For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense.

It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask.

To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones.

The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example.

The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know.

To me, what you say makes no difference makes a big difference.

Many of the confederate soldiers fought against the South for the reasons that most soldiers fight.....For their way of life as they saw it. They signed up because signing up was in the culture. They signed up because they were called to and expected too.

Most of them didn't own slaves.....Some slaves fought with them....They fought under the banner of the south.

People like yourself say all that is washed away by the connection to slavery......Well, for you it is.

Those that wish to wave the flag to represent the American South should feel free to do some.

Maybe they could put a disclaimer on the flag saying that they don't support slavery or racism.....But this attitude that its evil to wave a flag that has more than one message just doesn't feel right to me.


Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 2.38pm)

And many German soldiers were not Nazis, but they fought for the Nazi course nonetheless. Does that make it OK? People who fought for the South were fighting for the maintenance of slavery. They might have had no choice as an individual, they might not have owned slaves, and I had already pointed that out, but the fact of the matter remains that the cause for which they fought wanted to maintain slavery in perpetuity. You can dance around that all you want, but that does not change the facts.

As for your comments about slaves fighting for the South, many slaves were forced to work for the Confederate Army, as servants, laborer or cooks, etc. However, the idea that large numbers of slaves voluntarily fought for the South is spurious at best. But, I grant, there is some evidence that as many as several hundred slaves might have served in the Confederate Army as soldiers. However, that should be balanced by the fact that at least 180,000 fled north and joined the federal forces.

By the way, when you say "people like yourself", that is not even an argument it is simply pejorative. Furthermore, the straw man argument that somehow I claimed the people who waived the flag were evil is also a crock. Don't make up lies to support your argument. I never said that, and you know it.

The Confederate flag was created explicitly to identify regiments fighting for a pro slavery cause. It is not merely connected to slavery and racism, it was created as a symbol of it with the sole purpose of identifying people fighting for that cause.

The point is, the Confederate flag does not represent the South. It represents a select group of people in the South who have decided upon the narrative they wanted to create. If people want to wave the flag, that is fine by me. However, if they don't like people pointing out the explicit connection with slavery and racism then they should stop whining about it and ignore the criticism, or stop waving the thing.

Edited by NickinOX (22 Jul 2015 3.38pm)

'People who fought for the South were fighting for the maintenance of slavery'.

No, the end result of an action does not equal the motivation for that action. For example the people who voted in Hollande were not voting for the collapse of the economy even if that was the end result.

'many German soldiers were not Nazis, but they fought for the Nazi course nonetheless'

This statement that non Germans fought for the Nazi cause is simplistic. No, they fought for many different reasons but the unifying one was nationalism.

German society was destroyed after WW2, especially the parts under Soviet control. Most people would fight for their way of life.

Your summaries may work in your head but they don't speak for others.

Going back to slavery it didn't really end with the civil war....It continued by the use of forced labour under the guise of mostly pretend jail sentences.....It was slavery in all but name.

Jefferson did nothing about it. It partly proves that just like the confederate flag doesn't just carry a single slavery narrative nor does the civil war carry a single narrative....There were other additional reasons for it.

Lincoln nor Jefferson treated black people equally and there is historical evidence to back that up.....The civil war wasn't just about slavery......So you stating that people were fighting for this.....or that people were fighting for that....is simplistic.

So I'm not dancing nor do I wish to change facts. Instead I wish to present history as it is....Not how some wish to see it.

When I said, 'people like yourself' I didn't intend to insult. Instead I wished to describe those you hold your view.....You yourself are choosing to see that as pejorative.

'Furthermore, the straw man argument that somehow I claimed the people who waived the flag were evil is also a crock. Don't make up lies to support your argument. I never said that, and you know it.'

I didn't say 'you' claimed the people who waived the flag were evil....You really should read the text before going on about straw man arguments. I simply said that there was an attitude going around that people waving the Confederate flag were evil...I didn't say that this was 'your' attitude.

I think that's been backed up by the reaction to this latest mindless mass murder by some opponents to the flag....Where a connection between supporting evil inhumanities like slavery and waving the General Lee has been made.....And I'd say supporting slavery is evil.

The reasons people choose to wave flags need to be ascertained with some flags....That's actually a part of our law....This flag has a past of being used in country music and southern entertainment shows of the past that intended no racism......I'm pretty sure that if you asked for the reason most people fly a flag they are going to tell you.....I don't support the idea of telling others what their flag represents when they say it represents something else.

People can fly the General Lee and not support slavery or racism.....Like I said, a disclaimer would work for that.

Though I'd never fly it myself.....It doesn't represent me.


Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 5.01pm)


Despite all that, you still have not dealt with the key issue. The flag itself was created as a symbol of an army formed for the purpose of defending a government which came into existence to perpetuate slavery.

Again, look up the words spoken by the Confederate Vice President about the causes of the war. I already posted the link and directions to the relevant section.

Whether the people who wave the flag believe in slavery or whether they are racists is irrelevant. As I have already said, if they want to wave it around that is fine. But the fact that they might not be racists does not mean the flag isn't a racist symbol. Much like a WWII reenactor might not be a Nazi even if he or she dresses as one. The Nazi uniform or flag don't stop being racist symbols because of who is wearing or waving them. To assert that would simply be silly.

 


If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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legaleagle Flag 22 Jul 15 11.30pm

The editors of the Richmond,VA Southern Punch didn't seem in too much doubt at the time in 1864:


"The people of the South,’ says a contemporary, ‘are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.”

The President of the Confederacy,Jefferson Davis, seemed pretty clear too.In 1861 he told the Confederate Congress that because “the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable” to the prosperity of the South.. “With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled” by the election to the presidency of an antislavery person like Lincoln,“the people of the Southern States were driven . . . to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced.”

Edited by legaleagle (22 Jul 2015 11.38pm)

 

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