one less to blow us up
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In | RSS Feed
 dannyh  wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Jun 15 6.16pm |
  |
|---|---|
|
Quote serial thriller at 17 Jun 2015 6.03pm
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 5.27pm
See this view, in my mind, is hypocritical. When Egypt genitally mutilate women, it's because of Islam. Yet when Ethiopia do it, it's 'nothing directly to do with Christianity'. When Breivik massacres people, writing directly Islamophobic sentiment and calling for radical Catholicism, his religion remains out of the limelight, whereas when Muslims commit similar crimes, their religion is not only the basis for why they did it, but a virulent characteristic which inherently leads people to violence. When Congolese Christians rape women, it's 'nothing directly to do with Christianity'. When IS do similar, it is everything to do with Islam. Why? And more importantly, why do I even need to waste my time explaining that all religion is used for vicious ends, some to even greater extents than Islam has ever done (the Borges and Crusades killed more than IS ever will)? Islamic society has given us Maths, the guitar, coffee, soap, chemistry etc etc. Islamic nations like Indonesia and Turkey continue to boast some of the most incredible cultures on the planet, far more tolerant and inclusive than ours. If Islam is so evil, why are these countries so wonderful? Like I say, what follows scapegoating is ignorance, and what follows ignorance is panic. If you are afraid of something, learn more about it and you'll realise that it really isn't that bad after all. Derben, why not pop down to your local mosque and see what they have to say to your criticisms of their religion? I'm sure they'd be willing to discuss it with you.
I cant even be bothered to list all the instances that are the complete polar opposite of that statement, but I'll start with burning someone alive in a metal cage, and let other people pick up the baton.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
|
 Alert a moderator to this post |
  |
| Mapletree Croydon 17 Jun 15 6.17pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in the Ottoman Empire (predecessor of Turkey) in 1858 and in modern Turkey, homosexual activity has always been a legal act since the day it has founded in 1923. So a bit more liberal than good old Blighty eh?
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| derben 17 Jun 15 6.24pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote Mapletree at 17 Jun 2015 6.17pm
Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in the Ottoman Empire (predecessor of Turkey) in 1858 and in modern Turkey, homosexual activity has always been a legal act since the day it has founded in 1923. So a bit more liberal than good old Blighty eh? As of 2009 homosexual relationships, acts or behavior are forbidden in approximately thirty-six Islamic countries including Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Brunei, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Indonesia, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Nigeria, Oman, pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tanzania, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, the United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan and Yemen, with punishments including anything from a fine up to life imprisonment. Ten of those countries impose the death penalty for homosexuals. They are Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, pakistan, Saudi-Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates, Yemen and some states in Malaysia. As of 1999 in Iran, more than 4,000 lesbians and gays had been executed since the 1979 Islamic revolution.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| ghosteagle 17 Jun 15 6.30pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote Mapletree at 17 Jun 2015 6.17pm
Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in the Ottoman Empire (predecessor of Turkey) in 1858 and in modern Turkey, homosexual activity has always been a legal act since the day it has founded in 1923. So a bit more liberal than good old Blighty eh? Apparently the Americans only declassified homosexuality as a mental illness in 1973.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| elgrande bedford 17 Jun 15 6.49pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote ghosteagle at 17 Jun 2015 6.30pm
Quote Mapletree at 17 Jun 2015 6.17pm
Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in the Ottoman Empire (predecessor of Turkey) in 1858 and in modern Turkey, homosexual activity has always been a legal act since the day it has founded in 1923. So a bit more liberal than good old Blighty eh? Apparently the Americans only declassified homosexuality as a mental illness in 1973.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 18 Jun 15 9.31am |
|
|---|---|
|
What a surprise when hit with facts the more liberal among us dissipate like mist on sunny morning.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| serial thriller The Promised Land 18 Jun 15 10.42am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 6.10pm
Quote serial thriller at 17 Jun 2015 6.03pm
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 5.27pm
See this view, in my mind, is hypocritical. When Egypt genitally mutilate women, it's because of Islam. Yet when Ethiopia do it, it's 'nothing directly to do with Christianity'. When Breivik massacres people, writing directly Islamophobic sentiment and calling for radical Catholicism, his religion remains out of the limelight, whereas when Muslims commit similar crimes, their religion is not only the basis for why they did it, but a virulent characteristic which inherently leads people to violence. When Congolese Christians rape women, it's 'nothing directly to do with Christianity'. When IS do similar, it is everything to do with Islam. Why? And more importantly, why do I even need to waste my time explaining that all religion is used for vicious ends, some to even greater extents than Islam has ever done (the Borges and Crusades killed more than IS ever will)? Islamic society has given us Maths, the guitar, coffee, soap, chemistry etc etc. Islamic nations like Indonesia and Turkey continue to boast some of the most incredible cultures on the planet, far more tolerant and inclusive than ours. If Islam is so evil, why are these countries so wonderful? Like I say, what follows scapegoating is ignorance, and what follows ignorance is panic. If you are afraid of something, learn more about it and you'll realise that it really isn't that bad after all. Derben, why not pop down to your local mosque and see what they have to say to your criticisms of their religion? I'm sure they'd be willing to discuss it with you. LOL. Death penalty for being an apostate from Islam, death penalty for being gay. Women stoned to death for sex 'crimes'. Authors and cartoonists threatened with death. People hung from cranes in public. So tolerant and inclusive!
Ok, maybe I was being a tad hyperbolic in the claim you highlighted, but these are just two examples of free and open Islamic democracies which share many of our moral understandings. In Turkey, which has had severe issues with gender discrimination, the TKP ran an all-women shortlist at the recent elections. Senegal has higher numbers of women in Parliament than Britain. Indonesia have independent human rights and media organisations, something many Christian countries across the world lack. Of course these countries also have many issues: homosexuality is outlawed in Senegal, the death penalty is in practice in Indonesia (but not for apostasy) and Turkey continues to oppress Armenians and Kurds. But these aren't issues specific to Muslim societies in any way shape or form, and actually these major Islamic nations are far more progressive than many of their Christian or secular neighbours. Reza Aslan is a particularly brilliant writer on this subject, I strongly recommend taking 12 minutes out of your day and listening to this: [Link] I also find your defence of LGBT groups particularly laughable given that you said in another thread that you oppose same-sex marriage!
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| jamiemartin721 Reading 18 Jun 15 10.46am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote ghosteagle at 17 Jun 2015 6.30pm
Quote Mapletree at 17 Jun 2015 6.17pm
Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in the Ottoman Empire (predecessor of Turkey) in 1858 and in modern Turkey, homosexual activity has always been a legal act since the day it has founded in 1923. So a bit more liberal than good old Blighty eh? Apparently the Americans only declassified homosexuality as a mental illness in 1973. In a manner of speaking, the AMA and US Psychiatry had generally moved on from that some time before, but it was removed from the DSM (diagnostic statisticians model) with DSM-II, however it was moved to Sexual Disturbance Disorder, its not until DSM-IV (1987) that homosexuality disappeared completely (although in truth it was only really treated as a problem where individuals couldn't cope with being gay, and that was creating mental health problems).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| serial thriller The Promised Land 18 Jun 15 10.46am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 6.24pm
Quote Mapletree at 17 Jun 2015 6.17pm
Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in the Ottoman Empire (predecessor of Turkey) in 1858 and in modern Turkey, homosexual activity has always been a legal act since the day it has founded in 1923. So a bit more liberal than good old Blighty eh? As of 2009 homosexual relationships, acts or behavior are forbidden in approximately thirty-six Islamic countries including Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Brunei, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Indonesia, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Nigeria, Oman, pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tanzania, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, the United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan and Yemen, with punishments including anything from a fine up to life imprisonment. Ten of those countries impose the death penalty for homosexuals. They are Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, pakistan, Saudi-Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates, Yemen and some states in Malaysia. As of 1999 in Iran, more than 4,000 lesbians and gays had been executed since the 1979 Islamic revolution. So should we just totally ignore the 43 other non-Muslim countries where homosexuality is outlawed, or the fact that the Pope himself recently came out criticising homosexuality? Oh but of course, it's probably 'not directly to do with their religion'!
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| jamiemartin721 Reading 18 Jun 15 10.49am |
|
|---|---|
|
Turkey, among many listed above, are NOT Islamic countries, though they do have majority Muslim populations, Turkey for example is largely secularist (like pakistan, though both have increasing Islamist problems). Having a large, or dominant Muslim population doesn't make you Islamic, anymore than having a large Catholic or Protestant population makes you a Christian Country (even the US has separation of Church and State).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| serial thriller The Promised Land 18 Jun 15 10.57am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote jamiemartin721 at 18 Jun 2015 10.49am
Turkey, among many listed above, are NOT Islamic countries, though they do have majority Muslim populations, Turkey for example is largely secularist (like pakistan, though both have increasing Islamist problems). Having a large, or dominant Muslim population doesn't make you Islamic, anymore than having a large Catholic or Protestant population makes you a Christian Country (even the US has separation of Church and State). I think that's a fair point Jamie, but in the context of the argument around whether Islam itself is somehow more inherently backward than other religions and beliefs, Turkey is a fairly good example of progressive Islam, be it on a population scale rather than a governmental one.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| derben 18 Jun 15 11.01am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote serial thriller at 18 Jun 2015 10.42am
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 6.10pm
Quote serial thriller at 17 Jun 2015 6.03pm
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 5.27pm
See this view, in my mind, is hypocritical. When Egypt genitally mutilate women, it's because of Islam. Yet when Ethiopia do it, it's 'nothing directly to do with Christianity'. When Breivik massacres people, writing directly Islamophobic sentiment and calling for radical Catholicism, his religion remains out of the limelight, whereas when Muslims commit similar crimes, their religion is not only the basis for why they did it, but a virulent characteristic which inherently leads people to violence. When Congolese Christians rape women, it's 'nothing directly to do with Christianity'. When IS do similar, it is everything to do with Islam. Why? And more importantly, why do I even need to waste my time explaining that all religion is used for vicious ends, some to even greater extents than Islam has ever done (the Borges and Crusades killed more than IS ever will)? Islamic society has given us Maths, the guitar, coffee, soap, chemistry etc etc. Islamic nations like Indonesia and Turkey continue to boast some of the most incredible cultures on the planet, far more tolerant and inclusive than ours. If Islam is so evil, why are these countries so wonderful? Like I say, what follows scapegoating is ignorance, and what follows ignorance is panic. If you are afraid of something, learn more about it and you'll realise that it really isn't that bad after all. Derben, why not pop down to your local mosque and see what they have to say to your criticisms of their religion? I'm sure they'd be willing to discuss it with you. LOL. Death penalty for being an apostate from Islam, death penalty for being gay. Women stoned to death for sex 'crimes'. Authors and cartoonists threatened with death. People hung from cranes in public. So tolerant and inclusive!
Ok, maybe I was being a tad hyperbolic in the claim you highlighted, but these are just two examples of free and open Islamic democracies which share many of our moral understandings. In Turkey, which has had severe issues with gender discrimination, the TKP ran an all-women shortlist at the recent elections. Senegal has higher numbers of women in Parliament than Britain. Indonesia have independent human rights and media organisations, something many Christian countries across the world lack. Of course these countries also have many issues: homosexuality is outlawed in Senegal, the death penalty is in practice in Indonesia (but not for apostasy) and Turkey continues to oppress Armenians and Kurds. But these aren't issues specific to Muslim societies in any way shape or form, and actually these major Islamic nations are far more progressive than many of their Christian or secular neighbours. Reza Aslan is a particularly brilliant writer on this subject, I strongly recommend taking 12 minutes out of your day and listening to this: [Link] I also find your defence of LGBT groups particularly laughable given that you said in another thread that you oppose same-sex marriage! Not sure I am 'defending' gay groups, merely pointing out that they are persecuted far more in Islamic countries than they are in non-Islamic countries. I don't think I have said I oppose same-sex marriage as such. I don't regard it as a true marriage, but that is another issue. The issue doesn't particularly bother me. What did bother me was that a bakery in Northern Ireland was prosecuted for declining to promote same-sex marriage on a cake - in a province where same-sex marriage is not even legal. What is laughable is you implying that women are treated well in Islamic countries - they aren't even allowed to drive a car in Saudia Arabia, apart from being stoned to death for 'sex-crimes'.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Login / Register
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2023 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.