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Venezuela - socialist paradise

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stevegood Flag 04 Nov 15 11.03am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 10.54am

Quote matt_himself at 04 Nov 2015 8.26am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 8.14am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 10.31pm

Quote leifandersonshair at 03 Nov 2015 7.08pm

The politics and the system work- but, as Serial notes, state socialism is unsustainable in the current global climate of unfettered capitalism. Just as, in a world of successful socialist states, the single capitalist country would inevitably fail.

Calling socialism 'mumbo jumbo' is lazy and no real argument. Capitalism is a bunch of old hogwash. See? I can do it too!


Please provide an example of where the politics and system work in a socialist state, where living standards are raised consistently and where democracy thrives.

Venezuela would probably fit that bill. Do you include Sweden?


Edited by jamiemartin721 (04 Nov 2015 8.14am)

Please provide evidence that Venezuela is democratic. From everything I have read, the government there is doing a lot of things to restrict freedom that if they happened elsewhere, you and your sort would be up in arms over.

Sweden isn't socialist. You can delude yourself that the 'Nordic model' is socialism but it clearly isn't. It is a free market economy, highly taxed and with a social safety net. It is not socialist by definition.

Indeed, but its still democratic. In the same way we're democratic, whilst fitting into a system that favours the dominant party. We have a system where 15% of the electorate (roughly) vote for the Greens and UKIP (they got a seat each) - Hardly a fair model when you consider the votes the Liberal Democrats received was at least half that, and they got 8 seats.

Hardly a fair system either.

Sweden
Its definitely not a free market model either though, Sweden, there are a lot of social restrictions placed on companies to require them to fulfil commitments to the state and society, but it fulfils what I feel the a socialist model should represent. Socialism should provides a critique of capitalism, and in Sweden, and several other European countries, this influence of socialism has resulted in a curtailing of the failures and dangers of capitalist ideology as seen in far more free market models.


You talk about 'social restrictions', 'a critique of capitalism' and 'a socialist model'. In fact it is just a democratically elected government passing laws that they think benefit society - just as we have done in this country over the years. It is not socialism at all. Sweden would quickly go down the pan if all means of production, distribution and exchange were in the hands of the state.

 

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Hard Brexit 04 Nov 15 11.38am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 10.54am

Quote matt_himself at 04 Nov 2015 8.26am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 8.14am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 10.31pm

Quote leifandersonshair at 03 Nov 2015 7.08pm

The politics and the system work- but, as Serial notes, state socialism is unsustainable in the current global climate of unfettered capitalism. Just as, in a world of successful socialist states, the single capitalist country would inevitably fail.

Calling socialism 'mumbo jumbo' is lazy and no real argument. Capitalism is a bunch of old hogwash. See? I can do it too!


Please provide an example of where the politics and system work in a socialist state, where living standards are raised consistently and where democracy thrives.

Venezuela would probably fit that bill. Do you include Sweden?


Edited by jamiemartin721 (04 Nov 2015 8.14am)

Please provide evidence that Venezuela is democratic. From everything I have read, the government there is doing a lot of things to restrict freedom that if they happened elsewhere, you and your sort would be up in arms over.

Sweden isn't socialist. You can delude yourself that the 'Nordic model' is socialism but it clearly isn't. It is a free market economy, highly taxed and with a social safety net. It is not socialist by definition.

Indeed, but its still democratic. In the same way we're democratic, whilst fitting into a system that favours the dominant party. We have a system where 15% of the electorate (roughly) vote for the Greens and UKIP (they got a seat each) - Hardly a fair model when you consider the votes the Liberal Democrats received was at least half that, and they got 8 seats.

Hardly a fair system either.

Sweden
Its definitely not a free market model either though, Sweden, there are a lot of social restrictions placed on companies to require them to fulfil commitments to the state and society, but it fulfils what I feel the a socialist model should represent. Socialism should provides a critique of capitalism, and in Sweden, and several other European countries, this influence of socialism has resulted in a curtailing of the failures and dangers of capitalist ideology as seen in far more free market models.


Sweden is not a socialist state. It is a free market model and has to be because - it is a member of your beloved EU. Freedom of movement of labour and freedom of trade and all that.

 


"The real question is, at the end of the day, do we want to run our country? Are we proud of who we are? Are we happy to be just a star on somebody else's flag, or do we want to be an independent nation? - Nigel Farage

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View dannyh's Profile dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 04 Nov 15 8.55pm Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

I have read all the posts, and I have to say the socialists ability to ignore the nose on their face is staggering beyond belief.

When socialism fails (as it always does) it's always the nasty capalists fault for not wanting to pay 50 quid for a loaf of bread, and a tenner just for the pleasure of wipping your arse.

The USSR failed. North Korea Beyond a joke, Argentina in the s***, Venezuela going down the pan, Cuba slowly rotting, Bulgaria piss poor.

Capitalism is far from perfect but it's the only way.

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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View Dougiecito's Profile Dougiecito Flag In a dreamworld 04 Nov 15 9.32pm Send a Private Message to Dougiecito Add Dougiecito as a friend

I was in Venezuela when Chavez become president in 98/99, and been back a couple of times since. Feliz navidad became Feliz chavidad! Why are people from this s*** country, pointing fingers at how another country is?

 

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 05 Nov 15 7.49am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Venezuela has the world's highest rate of inflation, at 100% and forecast to hit 150% by the end of the year. The exchange rate is shot, hyper inflation just around the corner - with such an abundance of natural resources, this is some feat.

 

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View Dougiecito's Profile Dougiecito Flag In a dreamworld 05 Nov 15 9.10am Send a Private Message to Dougiecito Add Dougiecito as a friend

If anyone goes there, you have to take dollars. You get a lot more Boli's for your money. Do not use the 'official' exchange!

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 05 Nov 15 10.03am

Quote stevegood at 04 Nov 2015 11.03am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 10.54am

Quote matt_himself at 04 Nov 2015 8.26am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 8.14am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 10.31pm

Quote leifandersonshair at 03 Nov 2015 7.08pm

The politics and the system work- but, as Serial notes, state socialism is unsustainable in the current global climate of unfettered capitalism. Just as, in a world of successful socialist states, the single capitalist country would inevitably fail.

Calling socialism 'mumbo jumbo' is lazy and no real argument. Capitalism is a bunch of old hogwash. See? I can do it too!


Please provide an example of where the politics and system work in a socialist state, where living standards are raised consistently and where democracy thrives.

Venezuela would probably fit that bill. Do you include Sweden?


Edited by jamiemartin721 (04 Nov 2015 8.14am)

Please provide evidence that Venezuela is democratic. From everything I have read, the government there is doing a lot of things to restrict freedom that if they happened elsewhere, you and your sort would be up in arms over.

Sweden isn't socialist. You can delude yourself that the 'Nordic model' is socialism but it clearly isn't. It is a free market economy, highly taxed and with a social safety net. It is not socialist by definition.

Indeed, but its still democratic. In the same way we're democratic, whilst fitting into a system that favours the dominant party. We have a system where 15% of the electorate (roughly) vote for the Greens and UKIP (they got a seat each) - Hardly a fair model when you consider the votes the Liberal Democrats received was at least half that, and they got 8 seats.

Hardly a fair system either.

Sweden
Its definitely not a free market model either though, Sweden, there are a lot of social restrictions placed on companies to require them to fulfil commitments to the state and society, but it fulfils what I feel the a socialist model should represent. Socialism should provides a critique of capitalism, and in Sweden, and several other European countries, this influence of socialism has resulted in a curtailing of the failures and dangers of capitalist ideology as seen in far more free market models.


You talk about 'social restrictions', 'a critique of capitalism' and 'a socialist model'. In fact it is just a democratically elected government passing laws that they think benefit society - just as we have done in this country over the years. It is not socialism at all. Sweden would quickly go down the pan if all means of production, distribution and exchange were in the hands of the state.

This is how I see socialism as a working model within a capitalist world, as a means of social provision. I don't really abide by the idea of communism at all, which promotes tyranny, but the idea of the will of the people and the state serving the best interest of society.

In terms of socialism, I regard the vanguard approach of Marxist-Lenninism and Moaists as being a 'failed experiement' as it forces socialism by force of arms and tyranny, but proscribe to the approach of Marx where in Socialism must grow out of the failures of capitalism by the will of the people as a social change (similar to how capitalism grew out of the industrial revolution and the demise of agrarianism, which replaced feudalism).

Sweden also requires very strict laws on the economic stability of companies, that would be considered Marxist by any other standards, that are specifically devised towards ensuring a company security for the benefit of employees and the state, rather than the directors.

so for me, Sweden represents the way forwards, capitalism coupled to a social or socialist priority. I believe in the freedom of the individual (being more of an anarchist than a commie), and democracy that represents each and every single person. These I feel are vital to prevent tyranny of the majority (which communism, represents).

As for the UK passing laws for the benefit of society, that I disagree with, for most of my life I would say we pass laws based on maintaining the support of the parties voters, and primiarly the interests of corporations.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 05 Nov 15 10.31am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Nov 2015 10.03am

Quote stevegood at 04 Nov 2015 11.03am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 10.54am

Quote matt_himself at 04 Nov 2015 8.26am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 8.14am

Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 10.31pm

Quote leifandersonshair at 03 Nov 2015 7.08pm

The politics and the system work- but, as Serial notes, state socialism is unsustainable in the current global climate of unfettered capitalism. Just as, in a world of successful socialist states, the single capitalist country would inevitably fail.

Calling socialism 'mumbo jumbo' is lazy and no real argument. Capitalism is a bunch of old hogwash. See? I can do it too!


Please provide an example of where the politics and system work in a socialist state, where living standards are raised consistently and where democracy thrives.

Venezuela would probably fit that bill. Do you include Sweden?


Edited by jamiemartin721 (04 Nov 2015 8.14am)

Please provide evidence that Venezuela is democratic. From everything I have read, the government there is doing a lot of things to restrict freedom that if they happened elsewhere, you and your sort would be up in arms over.

Sweden isn't socialist. You can delude yourself that the 'Nordic model' is socialism but it clearly isn't. It is a free market economy, highly taxed and with a social safety net. It is not socialist by definition.

Indeed, but its still democratic. In the same way we're democratic, whilst fitting into a system that favours the dominant party. We have a system where 15% of the electorate (roughly) vote for the Greens and UKIP (they got a seat each) - Hardly a fair model when you consider the votes the Liberal Democrats received was at least half that, and they got 8 seats.

Hardly a fair system either.

Sweden
Its definitely not a free market model either though, Sweden, there are a lot of social restrictions placed on companies to require them to fulfil commitments to the state and society, but it fulfils what I feel the a socialist model should represent. Socialism should provides a critique of capitalism, and in Sweden, and several other European countries, this influence of socialism has resulted in a curtailing of the failures and dangers of capitalist ideology as seen in far more free market models.


You talk about 'social restrictions', 'a critique of capitalism' and 'a socialist model'. In fact it is just a democratically elected government passing laws that they think benefit society - just as we have done in this country over the years. It is not socialism at all. Sweden would quickly go down the pan if all means of production, distribution and exchange were in the hands of the state.

This is how I see socialism as a working model within a capitalist world, as a means of social provision. I don't really abide by the idea of communism at all, which promotes tyranny, but the idea of the will of the people and the state serving the best interest of society.

In terms of socialism, I regard the vanguard approach of Marxist-Lenninism and Moaists as being a 'failed experiement' as it forces socialism by force of arms and tyranny, but proscribe to the approach of Marx where in Socialism must grow out of the failures of capitalism by the will of the people as a social change (similar to how capitalism grew out of the industrial revolution and the demise of agrarianism, which replaced feudalism).

Sweden also requires very strict laws on the economic stability of companies, that would be considered Marxist by any other standards, that are specifically devised towards ensuring a company security for the benefit of employees and the state, rather than the directors.

so for me, Sweden represents the way forwards, capitalism coupled to a social or socialist priority. I believe in the freedom of the individual (being more of an anarchist than a commie), and democracy that represents each and every single person. These I feel are vital to prevent tyranny of the majority (which communism, represents).

As for the UK passing laws for the benefit of society, that I disagree with, for most of my life I would say we pass laws based on maintaining the support of the parties voters, and primiarly the interests of corporations.



Corporate governance in Sweden requires companies to be run efficiently and in the interests of their shareholders just as in the UK.

 

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 05 Nov 15 2.04pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

The most content, best run countries in the world are mostly borderline Socialist with a bit of healthy capitalism thrown in: Denmark, Finland, New Zealand, Canada, Holland, Norway. The usual suspects.

S'funny how that lot aren't repulsed by aspects of leftism and yet are pretty successful at 'society'. If only they would listen to the deep thinking, rational, anti-left ranters on here the could do it so much better. As good as the UK and USA even.

Edited by Kermit8 (05 Nov 2015 2.05pm)

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 05 Nov 15 2.23pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Nov 2015 2.04pm

The most content, best run countries in the world are mostly borderline Socialist with a bit of healthy capitalism thrown in: Denmark, Finland, New Zealand, Canada, Holland, Norway. The usual suspects.

S'funny how that lot aren't repulsed by aspects of leftism and yet are pretty successful at 'society'. If only they would listen to the deep thinking, rational, anti-left ranters on here the could do it so much better. As good as the UK and USA even.

Edited by Kermit8 (05 Nov 2015 2.05pm)

Denmark - centre right 2015
Finland - centre right 2015
NZ - centre right 2014
Canada - centre 2015
Holland - centre left 2012
Norway - centre right 2013

So really heavily left then...

As for most content, they all have higher suicide rates than the UK.

 


Optimistic as ever

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 05 Nov 15 2.32pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Nov 2015 2.04pm

The most content, best run countries in the world are mostly borderline Socialist with a bit of healthy capitalism thrown in: Denmark, Finland, New Zealand, Canada, Holland, Norway. The usual suspects.

S'funny how that lot aren't repulsed by aspects of leftism and yet are pretty successful at 'society'. If only they would listen to the deep thinking, rational, anti-left ranters on here the could do it so much better. As good as the UK and USA even.

Edited by Kermit8 (05 Nov 2015 2.05pm)

And you'll find quite a few of those counties, the European ones in particular, are among the highest payers of income tax in the world - with the exception of Aruba that is.

[Link]

 

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stevegood Flag 05 Nov 15 2.32pm

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Nov 2015 2.04pm

The most content, best run countries in the world are mostly borderline Socialist with a bit of healthy capitalism thrown in: Denmark, Finland, New Zealand, Canada, Holland, Norway. The usual suspects.

S'funny how that lot aren't repulsed by aspects of leftism and yet are pretty successful at 'society'. If only they would listen to the deep thinking, rational, anti-left ranters on here the could do it so much better. As good as the UK and USA even.

Edited by Kermit8 (05 Nov 2015 2.05pm)

None of those countries have Socialist economies, they are all Capitalist. Nothing particularly great about Holland and Denmark either.

 

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