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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 22 Feb 16 1.46pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

I get what you say and well said it is too.

I do believe, however, that without the foreign care workers, waiters, pub staff, labourers, fruit and veg pickers - and there must be many hundreds of thousands of them from the EU here- we will struggle to maintain our standards of living. Add the potential of lost jobs from the extra costs of trading and one or two other negatives of Brexit already mentioned it feels like the 'Out' campaign is very much using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I don't see those workers being allowed into the country if we had a points based system or if they were red-tape would rear its ugly and expensive head.

Cameron and around 75% of the cabinet think it is wiser to stay. The others want to risk what we already have and roll the dice with fingers crossed hoping it comes up a '7'.

I get that, but (again awaiting explanation from someone who will know what Brexit looks like) those unskilled workers (pubs, fruit and veg, etc) will be indirectly subsidised by the fact that they are preferable because they are cheaper, but there are consequently going to be UK citizens unable (or unwilling) to find that type of work.

Again, I claim to have no answers, but I do know people on zero hours contracts, I also know people who are unemployed, and it seems a false economy to allow unskilled labour to come in and then pay 'our own' unskilled labour benefits. Of course, whether those unemployed would then be willing to take those jobs is another question entirely.

Worded badly, but hopefully you get the point. I have nothing against EU migrants - they are showing a bit of gumption and some get up and go and, to be honest, I'd gladly swap the ones coming in to try and better their lot for some of the more feckless of our home grown talent.

 

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View Mr_Gristle's Profile Mr_Gristle Flag In the land of Whelk Eaters 22 Feb 16 1.47pm Send a Private Message to Mr_Gristle Add Mr_Gristle as a friend

It's certainly going to be interesting to watch this play out.

The CBI and Big Business telling us all how we have to stay in to protect profits by continuing to race to the bottom on wages (OK, maybe they won't tell the whole truth) and the Little Englanders on the other telling us how we'll be able to lock the migrants out and send all the benefit claimants from Eastern Europe back (without telling us how they propose to repatriate or take money away from those already here).

The anti-Establishment flame in me wants to vote OUT for the sheer F*** offness of it, but I can't bring myself to line up with exploitative hypocritical scum like Farage on principle.

 


Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

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View Willo's Profile Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 22 Feb 16 1.58pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by Mr_Gristle

It's certainly going to be interesting to watch this play out.

The CBI and Big Business telling us all how we have to stay in to protect profits by continuing to race to the bottom on wages (OK, maybe they won't tell the whole truth) and the Little Englanders on the other telling us how we'll be able to lock the migrants out and send all the benefit claimants from Eastern Europe back (without telling us how they propose to repatriate or take money away from those already here).

The anti-Establishment flame in me wants to vote OUT for the sheer F*** offness of it, but I can't bring myself to line up with exploitative hypocritical scum like Farage on principle.

Knew this would enter the debate.

 

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View wombat84's Profile wombat84 Flag 22 Feb 16 1.59pm Send a Private Message to wombat84 Add wombat84 as a friend

100% out.

 

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 22 Feb 16 2.17pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Sterling dropping like a stone already on 'out' fears.

We will have only 24 months to negotiate an exit if the 'out' vote wins when at that point we will cease to be a member state and any unfinished negotiations will automatically be terminated.


 


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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 22 Feb 16 3.02pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by npn

I get that, but (again awaiting explanation from someone who will know what Brexit looks like) those unskilled workers (pubs, fruit and veg, etc) will be indirectly subsidised by the fact that they are preferable because they are cheaper, but there are consequently going to be UK citizens unable (or unwilling) to find that type of work.

Again, I claim to have no answers, but I do know people on zero hours contracts, I also know people who are unemployed, and it seems a false economy to allow unskilled labour to come in and then pay 'our own' unskilled labour benefits. Of course, whether those unemployed would then be willing to take those jobs is another question entirely.

Worded badly, but hopefully you get the point. I have nothing against EU migrants - they are showing a bit of gumption and some get up and go and, to be honest, I'd gladly swap the ones coming in to try and better their lot for some of the more feckless of our home grown talent.

Or alternatively, make being feckless a lot harder by reducing benefits and improving education and training.
Allowing vast numbers of migrants here is not the answer. Unless the question is, do you want to make rich people richer.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 22 Feb 16 3.05pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Quite a bit, as we saw with Scottish Independence - in the run up to the referendum. Fear, nonsense and hyperbole will be bouncing around for the next four or five months, with both sides feeding on the paranoia, and ultimately, it'll result in zero change. Even if we do go 'out', in likelihood the actual reality will be minimal change, a few cosmetic gestures and business as usual.

I'm leaning more towards an out than an in. Whilst there are elements of the EU and membership that appeal to me, the EU exists primarily as a means of exerting Corporate pressure on other countries, including member states (things like TTIP, Tax sheltering, EU trade regulations and Freedom of Movement seriously concern me as they represent unaccountable interests).

Pretty much my position.

 

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Hoof Hearted 22 Feb 16 3.19pm

Originally posted by Mr_Gristle

It's certainly going to be interesting to watch this play out.

The CBI and Big Business telling us all how we have to stay in to protect profits by continuing to race to the bottom on wages (OK, maybe they won't tell the whole truth) and the Little Englanders on the other telling us how we'll be able to lock the migrants out and send all the benefit claimants from Eastern Europe back (without telling us how they propose to repatriate or take money away from those already here).

The anti-Establishment flame in me wants to vote OUT for the sheer F*** offness of it, but I can't bring myself to line up with exploitative hypocritical scum like Farage on principle.

There is no need for "little englanders" type narrative in this debate!

Farage may be a lot of things - but a hypocrite he is not.

He has stuck to his guns and always campaigned for the UK to exit the EU.

If you're looking for a hypocrite try Cameron. He is supporting the stay in campaign to save his job after fcuking up the reform negotiations and promising a referendum. Up till now he hasn't had a good word to say about the EU.

Edited by Hoof Hearted (22 Feb 2016 10.15pm)

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Feb 16 3.24pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Or alternatively, make being feckless a lot harder by reducing benefits and improving education and training.
Allowing vast numbers of migrants here is not the answer. Unless the question is, do you want to make rich people richer.

I'm not sure the problem would be helped by reducing benefits, but raising the minimum wage significantly would make some of these jobs more viable for those who are unemployed and in a position where they can't afford to take a job. Problem has been that whilst benefits are linked to inflation, wages aren't. Meaning that the influx of migrant workers has essentially made x number of jobs unworkable for many people who have ties here (such as those who have a family).

Where I live, the big contributor to welfare cost is housing benefit, because the cost of renting is through the room expensive. There is no real way someone on minimum wage could afford to rent a one bedroom flat each month, let alone a family home (easily going to set you back 1k a month after tax). Even with two working adults that's still a serious amount of money to find each month, before you get to bills and utilities.

 


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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Feb 16 3.44pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

Sterling dropping like a stone already on 'out' fears.

We will have only 24 months to negotiate an exit if the 'out' vote wins when at that point we will cease to be a member state and any unfinished negotiations will automatically be terminated.


Oh, boo hoo.

We onl have 24 months between being a stooge for Brussels or raking control of our own destiny.

Come back with a better retort, non racist man living in darkest Devon who does not hate black people. Honest.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View We are goin up!'s Profile We are goin up! Flag Coulsdon 22 Feb 16 3.50pm Send a Private Message to We are goin up! Add We are goin up! as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

Sterling dropping like a stone already on 'out' fears.

We will have only 24 months to negotiate an exit if the 'out' vote wins when at that point we will cease to be a member state and any unfinished negotiations will automatically be terminated.



I find it baffling that a leftie is suddenly quoting big business and currency fluctuations as reasons for staying in. Where were these considerations at the General Election?

Do you not think immigration is having an effect on our public services? It needs to be reduced, and quickly.

 


The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 22 Feb 16 4.02pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Oh, boo hoo.

We onl have 24 months between being a stooge for Brussels or raking control of our own destiny.

Come back with a better retort, non racist man living in darkest Devon who does not hate black people. Honest.

Still projecting your own ills onto others, I see.


It can't be easy being you living in denial for so long. Psychotherapy may help.

And to stop this becoming another tedious MATTHEW thread I will only debate about the EU and ignore your 'look at me look at me' childish and, frankly, boring vitriol from now.

I know why you do it. Anger. Anger that I see you in a way that, deep down, you know to be true but, for some reason, you just can't actually admit it to yourself.


Edited by Kermit8 (22 Feb 2016 4.48pm)

 


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