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December 7 2019 2.34am

The Brexit Thread

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 11 Jul 19 6.38am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by .TUX.

Stirling and Wisbech having a date night!

If I were batting for the other side....something tells me I could do better.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 11 Jul 19 6.39am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

Sounds good to me. Have a fun night.

Twas, cheers.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 11 Jul 19 6.40am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by dynamicdick

Dominic Grieve should be de-selected for this action and previous persistent attempts to block Brexit. This should also apply to any other MP who has sought this route including dear Mr Bercow. To all these idiots contribute to the Brexit process but do not dare block. Democracy has to be followed. Taking no deal off will again weaken our hand and play into the EU’s. Roll on Boris!

Totally agree, bear in mind his constituency voted to leave

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 11 Jul 19 6.46am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Nov 5th come early.

Well, he's known for annoying Catholics.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 11 Jul 19 6.48am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

And on a school night.
Bad head in the morning.

Bed head is terrible regardless of the time of day.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 11 Jul 19 6.55am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

These Lutwaffe reunions can be fun.

We hold the meetings quite close by....just turn Reitch at the end of the road.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 11 Jul 19 11.08am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Well it appears that the Irish government has a solution for their side of the border in the event of a no deal Brexit.

[Link]

As many of us have previously stated this was a manufactured issue, of course there will be difficulties but they are not insurmountable.

So now both the Irish and the EU have conceded that checks can be done away from the border so what are we arguing about. Drop the backstop.

 


One more point

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 11 Jul 19 11.26am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

A little something for the Remainers .

The five stages of grief:

1. Denial
Plenty of people refuse to accept the referendum result.

2. Anger
Plenty of that in fairness on both sides.

3. Bargaining
Hopefully this is where we are in the process.

4. Depression
I think some have moved onto this already. Have you seen Corbyn lately!

5. Acceptance.
The big one. At what point will most people accept that Brexit will/has happened. I have a feeling that whilst there will always be pro EU folk that if the UK does alright post Brexit most people will just accept it and move on so it will become a fringe issue.

 


One more point

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 12 Jul 19 12.37am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

This I will add, since I missed your message where you said you wanted me to continue to argue this point.

Recognision of a type of person and relationship is not 'promotion of a lifestyle'. Neither a sexual preference nor a race is in and of itself a 'lifestyle'. Sure if we're going to point to a worse case scenario of behaviour, for the former example there are those engaging in gangs, and for the latter unprotected sex. Those are ill advised lifestyles. In neither case, in an educational environment are those lifestyles promoted. In fact education endeavours to do the very opposite. 'Promotion of' policies like section 28 caused much harm than good. School groups supporting gay youth shut down in their droves as did support in general as there was concern about breaking the law. My own brother suffered mercilessly at the hands of vicious bullies during this time. So I speak up at cruel and outmoded policies, slurs and attitudes as it might help to put that take out there. A take that is not a controversial stance in wider society.

So the basic act of discussing different types of relationship isn't 'promotion'. It's a recognision of real life. By your logic though, as you believe that discussing these relationships 'configures society' to be a place where there are somehow more gay people, you will also be of the mind that where relationships are depicted between members of different races, that can also promote and encourage those kind of relationships. That is clearly something that both has been and can easily be heavily influenced by societal views. It requires zero shift in sexuality. Just the a-ok by social. In decades past, it would have been shocking, due to prejudice of the times, for someone to have kids with someone of another race, whereas now it's rightly a complete irrelevance to most people. So, considering the frequent passion and value you attribute to the white racial identity, where's your scathing Viktor Orbán style take on racial mixing within education and society being 'promoted'? There is certainly far more danger to your specific world view from this than other low hanging fruit. It just doesn't play as well for you to vocalise it. It's easier to demean demographics where there is a free pass.


With my view on having a very strict immigration policy , I'm not sure how you've decided that I 'enable the destruction' of 'Europe's biological heritage', but each to their own. If you mean do I attribute different values of those close to me based on their colour, then no.


It's a well written post but sure essentially we are repeating the same arguments from before and that's fine. I'm sorry to hear about the bullying your brother received, however bullying in schools is a developmental issue and children will seize on any differences.

I have my own views on how schools deal with bullying.

As we know it's not my view that it's the job of the state to teach young children how they should regard homosexuality or race or indeed any of the other differences between people......which is essentially what this boils down to. I view this as over extension and you don't.

Instead my view is that we don't focus on different identities with young minds. All these aspects are better focused upon as teenagers when critical thinking can hopefully be applied, encouraged and discussed.

Rather than singling out specific identity groups my view remains that I think good teachers promote treating people fairly and promote respect and non bullying as a standard way to treat all.

That is quite sufficient in my view and avoids the issues I mentioned above.

I've gone into multiple reasons why focusing on an identity group as a specific focus is a bad idea. From the fact that we could make these same points about many different groups....those who are perceived as less good looking or have poor social skills or have a low IQ. Those who are autistic....We could go on, the disabled, gingers, skin colours and so on...We could argue that these groups and more all deserve lessons. I differ with the idea that these topics are appropriate at pre teen ages other than the standard message of treating others how you'd like to be treated.

Also I've previously raised the fact that teaching that same sex families are to be seen in the same way as opposite sex families brings up areas of conflict....as we are seeing in the country right now.

We have a situation where the state is directly teaching social policies against the wishes of religious or socially conservative families.

What are teachers going to say to little Johnny when if he pipes up that he thinks same sex families are not equal in worth to the traditional family model?....that every child deserves a mother or father rather than to deliberately say it makes no difference?.....Are they going to tell little Johnny they are wrong?

I'd feel the same way about the idea that schools would teach anything about mixed race relationships. That to me would be bizarre. These are choices made by individuals, it isn't for schools to have an opinion.

I'm of the view that all these social subjects should not be bothering the minds of young children.

As for immigration....does this mean you voted leave?

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jul 2019 2.46am)

 

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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 12 Jul 19 3.13am Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


It's a well written post but sure essentially we are repeating the same arguments from before and that's fine. I'm sorry to hear about the bullying your brother received, however bullying in schools is a developmental issue and children will seize on any differences.

I have my own views on how schools deal with bullying.

As we know it's not my view that it's the job of the state to teach young children how they should regard homosexuality or race or indeed any of the other differences between people......which is essentially what this boils down to. I view this as over extension and you don't.

Instead my view is that we don't focus on different identities with young minds. All these aspects are better focused upon as teenagers when critical thinking can hopefully be applied, encouraged and discussed.

Rather than singling out specific identity groups my view remains that I think good teachers promote treating people fairly and promote respect and non bullying as a standard way to treat all.

That is quite sufficient in my view and avoids the issues I mentioned above.

I've gone into multiple reasons why focusing on an identity group as a specific focus is a bad idea. From the fact that we could make these same points about many different groups....those who are perceived as less good looking or have poor social skills. Those who are autistic....We could go on, the disabled, gingers, skin colours and so on...We could argue that these groups and more all deserve lessons. I differ with the idea that these topics are appropriate at pre teen ages other than the standard message of treating others how you'd like to be treated.

Also I've previously raised the fact that teaching that same sex families are to be seen in the same way as opposite sex families brings up areas of conflict....as we are seeing in the country right now.

We have a situation where the state is directly teaching social policies against the wishes of religious or socially conservative families.

I'm of the view that all these social subjects should not be bothering the minds of young children.

As for immigration....does this mean you voted leave?

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jul 2019 1.42am)

I don't think I'm going over old ground really. I'm just explaining to whoever is interested, why I don't think discussing relationships has to be 'promotion' of them any more than it is a reflection of society, and also why there can sometimes be better language and ways of talking about groups of people. Ultimately, if you don't like something being taught, you don't like it.

If you feel so strongly about it that you'd homeschool your kids over it, I feel that is a bewildering overreaction, but again that would be your choice. I wouldn't want people not to have that choice by the way. However, when they turn on the TV though and their favourite music or sports personality has come out, or when a relative brings their partner around, you will find the exact same issues out of the classroom that you find in it. Sure you can then address it your way though... just like you could after a class.


Yes, I did vote leave and solely over that issue. If we had been able to set our own limits, I would have voted remain. I have voted for UKIP in the past too, for the same reason. Waiting for a day that was a long time coming. But I have found the idea that race has to be so central to why someone would dislike immigration to be more prevalent here. Even a foreign born friend of mine, voted leave. Probably not a common occurrence. I found that rather amusing, but at the same time it echoes my point. There is something almost python-esque about an Island becoming home to millions of immigrants that brings about a vision of just pulling up the drawbridge for a bit and realising that the sky's not going to fall in as consequence. Perhaps the very opposite even.


Edited by dollardays (12 Jul 2019 3.44am)

 

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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 12 Jul 19 3.36am Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

Quote
I'd feel the same way about the idea that schools would teach anything about mixed race relationships. That to me would be bizarre. These are choices made by individuals, it isn't for schools to have an opinion.

They wouldn't need to even intend to teach it though. As part of a traditional male-female relationship discussion or depiction, the couples discussed wouldn't necessarily both be of the same race. And if they aren't of the same race is that a problem? Do you see that as 'promotion' of that type of relationship to children?

Views concerning mixed race relationships have massively changed over time, down to a societal view of how acceptable they are and this would be a demonstration of that. It wouldn't even have to be an intentional one. Just, again, a reflection of society. I pointed out Viktor Orbáns view, race mixing, he's certainly not in favour of it for his country. And you yourself have been very clear about how adamant you are about the European genes continuing on, in your family and the country as a whole, about the potential of being 'mixed out of existence' or mixes that don't particularly herald from or have an obvious connection to any one place. So are you against this type of relationship being depicted too? And if not, is that because you think it's absolutely fine to, or because unlike Hungary there is not the numbers or public opinion to push against it?

Look at stats from the US and elsewhere going back decades. People almost universally used to believe that mixed race relationships were wrong. Can you really say in all sincerity that depictions of mixed race couples in school, or on TV or anywhere is any less of a legitimisation of that when we can very much see with our own eyes and from public view that is the case? That's perfectly okay with me, but is it not, with the changes it brings, diametrically opposite to your vision for the country?


Edited by dollardays (12 Jul 2019 3.59am)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 12 Jul 19 4.02am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

If you feel so strongly about it that you'd homeschool your kids over it, I feel that is a bewildering overreaction, but again that would be your choice. I wouldn't want people not to have that choice by the way. However, when they turn on the TV though and their favourite music or sports personality has come out, or when a relative brings their partner around, you will find the exact same issues out of the classroom that you find in it. Sure you can then address it your way though... just like you could after a class.

I have my boys starting September in a school that was pretty over subscribed but still I'll be asking about this topic with their teacher as I know it's all about who you get.

From what I've seen of her so far I don't think I have that much to concern myself about.

Originally posted by dollardays

Yes, I did vote leave and solely over that issue. If we had been able to set our own limits, I would have voted remain. I have voted for UKIP in the past too, for the same reason. Waiting for a day that was a long time coming. But I have found the idea that race has to be so central to why someone would dislike immigration to be more prevalent here. Even a foreign born friend of mine, voted leave. Probably not a common occurrence. I found that rather amusing, but at the same time it echoes my point. There is something almost python-esque about an Island becoming home to millions of immigrants that brings about a vision of just pulling up the drawbridge for a bit and realising that the sky's not going to fall in as consequence. Perhaps the very opposite even.

Edited by dollardays (12 Jul 2019 3.44am)

Whether the sky is falling in very much depends upon what your view of what kind of future England/UK/Europe has as a land of majority non Anglos or/and non Europeans......and indeed, what kind of future that means for the Europeans that remain.

It seems to me that the countries that severely limit foreign citizenship and naturalisation like Japan do so for reasons far more in line with my reasoning than yours perhaps.


Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jul 2019 4.36am)

 

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