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April 27 2024 3.44pm

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 20 Oct 19 7.21am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

Parliament has just said 'we don't trust you'.

My complaint would actually be against the 306 MPs who voted against Letwin.


Why can't they face scrutiny, or the people on brexit.

So why won't they go to the polls? Labour obviously running scared. Thought they faced the people on Brexit in 2016 but, of course, I may be wrong

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 20 Oct 19 7.46am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That will be challenged in Court for sure and elevated to the Supreme Court very swiftly.

There are two important things which I suspect will come into focus now.

The first are the promises that were given by the government to the Court in Scotland about sending the letter and the request that should they fail to do so that the Court should do so on their behalf.

The second is that Judges don't only reach conclusions on the letter of the law but on the intentions which lie behind it.

Johnson trying to thwart the will of Parliament in this way just shows that their distrust of him is totally justified and ought to be condemned by everyone, whatever their personal preference about Brexit might be. It's unconscionable behaviour.

Parliament forcing the PM to do something he didn't want to do. I can't imagine any politician being happy or gracious with that scenario.

I said yesterday my feeling was that the EU would sit on the letter and the papers seem to agree. The EU actually wants this deal so they are going to give Boris as much time as possible to get it over the line. Besides there is always the possibility that one of the countries e.g. France has had enough so better to be passive for now and hope the problem goes away.

The Remainers will complain about how he has done it (unsigned) but I doubt a court will want to take it any further. Last night Donald Tusk acknowledged receipt of the letter and confirmed he understands the request for an extension. When all is said and done that's all the Benn act is about the rest is politics.

On Monday Boris will try to bring his motion again assuming that Bercow allows him. The real surprise for me was the margin of defeat I thought it would be much closer. Boris has his hands full the number of Labour rebels was a lot smaller than predicted and the DUP are holding firm.

Still all to play for.

 


One more point

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 20 Oct 19 8.46am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It's not a EU agreement.

It's our agreement with the EU which needs to be established in UK law. That will be complicated and time consuming and definitely needs to be scrutinised.

How can that possibly be known to the letter.
There are at least 15 months of negotiations from this deal being approved.
What can be assured in legal terms which would make it acceptable?
Everything is an unknown.

 

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Online Flag The garden of England.(not really) 20 Oct 19 9.03am Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It was Letwin's amendment but it wasn't intended to "wreck" it at all. That's just the way the ultra leavers want to present it. The purpose is to ensure it is scrutinised and amend it if needed to ensure that Johnson's assurances are written into law.

It will pass. Be patient.


Edited by Wisbech Eagle (19 Oct 2019 10.32pm)

It was a wrecking agreement, all the media are saying so.....hope the Traitorous Letwin tosser is removed at he next GE, although I will NEVER vote in any election again...what will your labour party do if they lose, complain and ask for another as its not legally binding? All MPs are devious lying self serving tossers and deserve no respect from anyone

 

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 20 Oct 19 9.12am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

It was a wrecking agreement, all the media are saying so.....hope the Traitorous Letwin tosser is removed at he next GE, although I will NEVER vote in any election again...what will your labour party do if they lose, complain and ask for another as its not legally binding? All MPs are devious lying self serving tossers and deserve no respect from anyone

Not standing I believe - makes it worse.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 20 Oct 19 9.26am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Andrew Pearce reckons Boris has the votes I am not sure how he arrived at that conclusion but certainly a number of MPS who voted for Letwin have since said they will vote for the deal.

This all comes down to whether Bercow will allow the motion to be put. A fair minded speaker would acknowledge that the government never actually put their motion to the house and so would allow it, a fair minded speaker that is.

Parliament has an odd way of working yesterday the government wanted the house to vote on a motion Letwin effectively said no you don't want to vote on that vote on this one instead.

PLCs have shareholder meetings all the time. The board puts a motion to award the directors a massive bonus. Rebel shareholders put down a motion to sack the board both motions are voted on. That seems a fairer way of doing it rather than changing somebody else's motion. Yet Another reason to review how Parliament works in its arcane ways.

Edited by Badger11 (20 Oct 2019 9.27am)

 


One more point

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 20 Oct 19 9.30am Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Andrew Pearce reckons Boris has the votes I am not sure how he arrived at that conclusion but certainly a number of MPS who voted for Letwin have since said they will vote for the deal.

This all comes down to whether Bercow will allow the motion to be put. A fair minded speaker would acknowledge that the government never actually put their motion to the house and so would allow it, a fair minded speaker that is.

Parliament has an odd way of working yesterday the government wanted the house to vote on a motion Letwin effectively said no you don't want to vote on that vote on this one instead.

PLCs have shareholder meetings all the time. The board puts a motion to award the directors a massive bonus. Rebel shareholders put down a motion to sack the board both motions are voted on. That seems a fairer way of doing it rather than changing somebody else's motion. Yet Another reason to review how Parliament works in its arcane ways.

Edited by Badger11 (20 Oct 2019 9.27am)

It's quite clear that parliament will not give its approval until all the necessary legislation has been passed.

 

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Online Flag The garden of England.(not really) 20 Oct 19 9.40am Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by chris123

Not standing I believe - makes it worse.

so hes a coward as well as a s***house then?

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 20 Oct 19 9.40am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

It's quite clear that parliament will not give its approval until all the necessary legislation has been passed.

Well one thing for sure is that even if Boris wins the indicative vote some MPs will still put down wrecking amendments when they debate the actually legislation

Edited by Badger11 (20 Oct 2019 9.40am)

 


One more point

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 20 Oct 19 9.54am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

so hes a coward as well as a s***house then?

Not going to be facing his electorate.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 20 Oct 19 10.59am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

[Link]

Can someone explain why no-one was arrested for this but were when Soubry was called a Nazi?

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Oct 19 11.03am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Parliament forcing the PM to do something he didn't want to do. I can't imagine any politician being happy or gracious with that scenario.

Your description is how the government want you to see it, but it isn't true. The PM and government cannot act unlawfully. The Benn Act is the law, and not simply Parliament forcing the PM to do something. This is another episode in the "who is supreme" battle and it's one which Parliament MUST win or our whole system is challenged and down that road lie some very dark places. PMs are not just "any politician". They lead the country and are supposed to do so lawfully and with dignity. Johnson looks like a 5 year old throwing his toys out of his pram because he cannot get his own way. How do you think that looks to the rest of the world/

I said yesterday my feeling was that the EU would sit on the letter and the papers seem to agree. The EU actually wants this deal so they are going to give Boris as much time as possible to get it over the line. Besides there is always the possibility that one of the countries e.g. France has had enough so better to be passive for now and hope the problem goes away.

They won't rush because they have no need to. They will await developments but the signs are that if it comes to the wire they would agree to an extension to avoid a no deal.

The Remainers will complain about how he has done it (unsigned) but I doubt a court will want to take it any further. Last night Donald Tusk acknowledged receipt of the letter and confirmed he understands the request for an extension. When all is said and done that's all the Benn act is about the rest is politics.

That might prove to be true. If legal receipt is acknowledged then the only relevance will be the childish behaviour. The Letwin amendment is what now matters.

On Monday Boris will try to bring his motion again assuming that Bercow allows him. The real surprise for me was the margin of defeat I thought it would be much closer. Boris has his hands full the number of Labour rebels was a lot smaller than predicted and the DUP are holding firm.

I think it will pass, probably after a short extension to enable Parliament to fully scrutinise and amend it. The purpose of the amendments will be to ensure Parliament have sufficient opportunities to be involved at every stage of the detailed negotiations and hold the government's feet to the fire if the fail to keep any of their promises, with extension periods written into it should the negotiations overrun, thus avoiding any possibility of deliberate attempts at another "no deal" crash out. There will almost certainly be an attempt to require the final approval of the people via a confirmatory referendum. I think that will fail but become a major plank in the manifestos of the opposition parties at the forthcoming GE.

Still all to play for.

It is, and for some years yet to come.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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