Another black man shot by police in USA

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wordup 12 Dec 17 10.10pm
Originally posted by 7mins I’m a champion for black people... my views are from frustration. I feel black people massively underachieve. I feel my views are consistent. This discussion started about a white man being shot... my views are similar to when young black males get shot. Being mixed race gives me a foot in both camps. If we were discussing diet... I’d say black people eat far better. If we were discussing health... I’d say black people take care of their health better, if we were discussing care for the elderly... I’d say black people care for their elders better. If we’re talking education, I’d say whites take it more seriously. If we’re discussing crime, I’d say black people get involved in more crime. I can pretend I don’t see these things... but I believe the most bitter truth (as I see it) is better than the sweetest lie. We're all a victim of our circumstances in a way. We all have our issues and clearly you're sick to death of BLM vs the police because it's overly simplified and in fact I agree that the police don't 'have it in for black people'. However, you appear to have lurched to the opposite extreme of a 'defend police at all costs' attitude, since we often unfortunately become a shadow or mirror image of the injustice or problem we highlight. It might be better to see that there is indeed a pretty serious issue with policing in the US, but it is both blacks and whites that suffer because of it. Your take on the example that clearly shows a sadistic, gun happy cop waiting for an opportunity to unload his gun into a crying man begging for his life.. and indeed that is what he did.. is a bit sad really. The language he uses isn't something that a professional worrying that he might be shot uses. It's the language and behaviour of someone who knows that they are wearing a 'get out of jail free' card.
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wordup

12 Dec 17 10.10pm

Originally posted by 7mins

I’m a champion for black people... my views are from frustration. I feel black people massively underachieve. I feel my views are consistent. This discussion started about a white man being shot... my views are similar to when young black males get shot.

Being mixed race gives me a foot in both camps.

If we were discussing diet... I’d say black people eat far better. If we were discussing health... I’d say black people take care of their health better, if we were discussing care for the elderly... I’d say black people care for their elders better. If we’re talking education, I’d say whites take it more seriously. If we’re discussing crime, I’d say black people get involved in more crime. I can pretend I don’t see these things... but I believe the most bitter truth (as I see it) is better than the sweetest lie.

We're all a victim of our circumstances in a way. We all have our issues and clearly you're sick to death of BLM vs the police because it's overly simplified and in fact I agree that the police don't 'have it in for black people'. However, you appear to have lurched to the opposite extreme of a 'defend police at all costs' attitude, since we often unfortunately become a shadow or mirror image of the injustice or problem we highlight. It might be better to see that there is indeed a pretty serious issue with policing in the US, but it is both blacks and whites that suffer because of it.

Your take on the example that clearly shows a sadistic, gun happy cop waiting for an opportunity to unload his gun into a crying man begging for his life.. and indeed that is what he did.. is a bit sad really. The language he uses isn't something that a professional worrying that he might be shot uses. It's the language and behaviour of someone who knows that they are wearing a 'get out of jail free' card.

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7mins In the bush 12 Dec 17 10.41pm
Originally posted by wordup We're all a victim of our circumstances in a way. We all have our issues and clearly you're sick to death of BLM vs the police because it's overly simplified and in fact I agree that the police don't 'have it in for black people'. However, you appear to have lurched to the opposite extreme of a 'defend police at all costs' attitude, since we often unfortunately become a shadow or mirror image of the injustice or problem we highlight. It might be better to see that there is indeed a pretty serious issue with policing in the US, but it is both blacks and whites that suffer because of it. Your take on the example that clearly shows a sadistic, gun happy cop waiting for an opportunity to unload his gun into a crying man begging for his life.. and indeed that is what he did.. is a bit sad really. The language he uses isn't something that a professional worrying that he might be shot uses. It's the language and behaviour of someone who knows that they are wearing a 'get out of jail free' card. I haven't defended the cop...I've been critical of trial by media, and have stuck to the facts... I don't know what info the cop was given, I don't know what training and instructions the cop has been given. So it's impossible for me to make a judgement on a 5 min youtube clip. I disputed the use of the word "murder" and used BLM as a example of what can happen when people make s*** up (Murder is premeditated) It seems my refusal to blame the cop due to lack of available information, makes people think I believe he is not guilty. What I do know... is he gave clear instructions not to move his hands... he told him he would be shot if he did. The poor kid moved his hand towards his waistband, the cop shot him. Is that how he was trained? Did he give enough warning? What info was he given before arriving? It seems social media makes some people qualified to make judgements without further information.
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7mins

In the bush 12 Dec 17 10.41pm

Originally posted by wordup

I haven't defended the cop...I've been critical of trial by media, and have stuck to the facts... I don't know what info the cop was given, I don't know what training and instructions the cop has been given. So it's impossible for me to make a judgement on a 5 min youtube clip. I disputed the use of the word "murder" and used BLM as a example of what can happen when people make s*** up (Murder is premeditated)

It seems my refusal to blame the cop due to lack of available information, makes people think I believe he is not guilty.

What I do know... is he gave clear instructions not to move his hands... he told him he would be shot if he did. The poor kid moved his hand towards his waistband, the cop shot him.

Is that how he was trained?
Did he give enough warning?
What info was he given before arriving?

It seems social media makes some people qualified to make judgements without further information.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Dec 17 1.07pm
Ray in Houston and 7 Mins - Time out please before I end up having to card you. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Dec 17 1.07pm

Ray in Houston and 7 Mins - Time out please before I end up having to card you.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Dec 17 1.20pm
Originally posted by 7mins I haven't defended the cop...I've been critical of trial by media, and have stuck to the facts... I don't know what info the cop was given, I don't know what training and instructions the cop has been given. So it's impossible for me to make a judgement on a 5 min youtube clip. I disputed the use of the word "murder" and used BLM as a example of what can happen when people make s* up (Murder is premeditated**) It seems my refusal to blame the cop due to lack of available information, makes people think I believe he is not guilty. What I do know... is he gave clear instructions not to move his hands... he told him he would be shot if he did. The poor kid moved his hand towards his waistband, the cop shot him. Is that how he was trained? Did he give enough warning? What info was he given before arriving? It seems social media makes some people qualified to make judgements without further information. It doesn't require pre-meditation, it requires deliberate action and 'malicious intent' - although in the US you have degrees of murder (1st Degree, 2nd Degree and 3rd degree - a form of manslaughter - which are slightly different). Whether the cop actually murdered the guy, is difficult questions from an objective point of view. At what point is it acceptable to shoot someone for moving their hands? You can't really just take that action out of the context of both sides actions - Was it even reasonable the degree of aggression and threat being presented by the officer prior to that. Sure they were responding to a call about a rifle. But at no point is the officer even asking the guy if he has a gun, or is armed or trying to engage in a reasonable dialogue with the 'suspect' to control the situation. I'd say that the only person who is innocent in this is the guy who was shot - Watch the video, and he has done nothing but try to comply and follow instructions - There is no feasible reason for the cop to consider him an immanent threat. Even when he moves his hands towards his waistband, its pretty clear he's not going for a gun (and if you've got an assault rifle pointed at a guy, even if they try to whip out a pistol, you're still going to be able to put them down, before its cleared their trousers). The cop failed to control the situation, and ironically, a cop who cannot do that is going to put himself and others in harms way. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Dec 17 1.20pm

Originally posted by 7mins

It seems my refusal to blame the cop due to lack of available information, makes people think I believe he is not guilty.

What I do know... is he gave clear instructions not to move his hands... he told him he would be shot if he did. The poor kid moved his hand towards his waistband, the cop shot him.

Is that how he was trained?
Did he give enough warning?
What info was he given before arriving?

It seems social media makes some people qualified to make judgements without further information.

It doesn't require pre-meditation, it requires deliberate action and 'malicious intent' - although in the US you have degrees of murder (1st Degree, 2nd Degree and 3rd degree - a form of manslaughter - which are slightly different).

Whether the cop actually murdered the guy, is difficult questions from an objective point of view. At what point is it acceptable to shoot someone for moving their hands? You can't really just take that action out of the context of both sides actions - Was it even reasonable the degree of aggression and threat being presented by the officer prior to that.

Sure they were responding to a call about a rifle. But at no point is the officer even asking the guy if he has a gun, or is armed or trying to engage in a reasonable dialogue with the 'suspect' to control the situation.

I'd say that the only person who is innocent in this is the guy who was shot - Watch the video, and he has done nothing but try to comply and follow instructions - There is no feasible reason for the cop to consider him an immanent threat. Even when he moves his hands towards his waistband, its pretty clear he's not going for a gun (and if you've got an assault rifle pointed at a guy, even if they try to whip out a pistol, you're still going to be able to put them down, before its cleared their trousers).

The cop failed to control the situation, and ironically, a cop who cannot do that is going to put himself and others in harms way.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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npn Crowborough 13 Dec 17 1.45pm
The kid clearly reaches behind him despite being explicitly told if he does so, he will be shot, however, in my opinion, that's no excuse to actually shoot him as he appears to be no threat. My biggest worry in the footage is just how confusing the instructions seemed to be: "cross your legs, now crawl towards me, DON'T UNCROSS YOUR LEGS". Surely once the man is prone, arms and legs stretched out, it would be safe to approach under cover? It's getting him down and then asking him to move which seems to cause the issue (in a man obviously terrified). I'd like to know what they are trained to say and do and if there's a reason for it
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npn

Crowborough 13 Dec 17 1.45pm

The kid clearly reaches behind him despite being explicitly told if he does so, he will be shot, however, in my opinion, that's no excuse to actually shoot him as he appears to be no threat. My biggest worry in the footage is just how confusing the instructions seemed to be: "cross your legs, now crawl towards me, DON'T UNCROSS YOUR LEGS". Surely once the man is prone, arms and legs stretched out, it would be safe to approach under cover? It's getting him down and then asking him to move which seems to cause the issue (in a man obviously terrified).

I'd like to know what they are trained to say and do and if there's a reason for it

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7mins In the bush 13 Dec 17 2.58pm
Originally posted by npn The kid clearly reaches behind him despite being explicitly told if he does so, he will be shot, however, in my opinion, that's no excuse to actually shoot him as he appears to be no threat. My biggest worry in the footage is just how confusing the instructions seemed to be: "cross your legs, now crawl towards me, DON'T UNCROSS YOUR LEGS". Surely once the man is prone, arms and legs stretched out, it would be safe to approach under cover? It's getting him down and then asking him to move which seems to cause the issue (in a man obviously terrified). I'd like to know what they are trained to say and do and if there's a reason for it This is key, we need to know if the officer followed protocol. Screaming “murderer” after watching a 5min video clip is utterly stupid.
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7mins

In the bush 13 Dec 17 2.58pm

Originally posted by npn

I'd like to know what they are trained to say and do and if there's a reason for it

This is key, we need to know if the officer followed protocol.

Screaming “murderer” after watching a 5min video clip is utterly stupid.

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7mins In the bush 13 Dec 17 3.02pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 It doesn't require pre-meditation, it requires deliberate action and 'malicious intent' - although in the US you have degrees of murder (1st Degree, 2nd Degree and 3rd degree - a form of manslaughter - which are slightly different). Whether the cop actually murdered the guy, is difficult questions from an objective point of view. At what point is it acceptable to shoot someone for moving their hands? You can't really just take that action out of the context of both sides actions - Was it even reasonable the degree of aggression and threat being presented by the officer prior to that. Sure they were responding to a call about a rifle. But at no point is the officer even asking the guy if he has a gun, or is armed or trying to engage in a reasonable dialogue with the 'suspect' to control the situation. I'd say that the only person who is innocent in this is the guy who was shot - Watch the video, and he has done nothing but try to comply and follow instructions - There is no feasible reason for the cop to consider him an immanent threat. Even when he moves his hands towards his waistband, its pretty clear he's not going for a gun (and if you've got an assault rifle pointed at a guy, even if they try to whip out a pistol, you're still going to be able to put them down, before its cleared their trousers). The cop failed to control the situation, and ironically, a cop who cannot do that is going to put himself and others in harms way. At very best, this incident could be Voluntary Man slaughter
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7mins

In the bush 13 Dec 17 3.02pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

The cop failed to control the situation, and ironically, a cop who cannot do that is going to put himself and others in harms way.

At very best, this incident could be Voluntary Man slaughter

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Dec 17 3.34pm
Originally posted by 7mins At very best, this incident could be Voluntary Man slaughter Objectively, I think your probably right, although dependent on the case that can be made in terms of prosecution, it could be second degree murder (if they could show that there was a malicious intent, or that the individual had orchestrated a situation in which he could shoot the suspect). That said, including evidence like the engraving on his gun, or documented police procedure for the situation could also swing it towards 2nd degree Murder (for example, if the actions of the police officer were completely contrary to procedure - then the case for constructing an excuse to shoot someone makes it malicious intent, and 2nd degree murder - possibly 1st degree - but that would require exceptional proof). Problem is, again, that the police is 'marking its own homework' and the legal system is protecting that. The question really should be about what procedure and training is, and whether the police officer's actions were reasonable and proportional to the situation. We often criticise the IPCC in the UK, but in the US it seems that the role of oversight is to protect the police department from blame and where ever possible protect the police officers from accountability. No way this guy should have been an police officer, armed with an assault rifle. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Dec 17 3.34pm

Originally posted by 7mins

At very best, this incident could be Voluntary Man slaughter

Objectively, I think your probably right, although dependent on the case that can be made in terms of prosecution, it could be second degree murder (if they could show that there was a malicious intent, or that the individual had orchestrated a situation in which he could shoot the suspect).

That said, including evidence like the engraving on his gun, or documented police procedure for the situation could also swing it towards 2nd degree Murder (for example, if the actions of the police officer were completely contrary to procedure - then the case for constructing an excuse to shoot someone makes it malicious intent, and 2nd degree murder - possibly 1st degree - but that would require exceptional proof).

Problem is, again, that the police is 'marking its own homework' and the legal system is protecting that. The question really should be about what procedure and training is, and whether the police officer's actions were reasonable and proportional to the situation.

We often criticise the IPCC in the UK, but in the US it seems that the role of oversight is to protect the police department from blame and where ever possible protect the police officers from accountability.

No way this guy should have been an police officer, armed with an assault rifle.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stuk Top half 15 Dec 17 4.54pm
In the Netherlands the police have managed to shoot a, non-compliant, knife wielding, person 3 times at Schiphol airport and he's still alive. [Link] Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 15 Dec 17 4.54pm

In the Netherlands the police have managed to shoot a, non-compliant, knife wielding, person 3 times at Schiphol airport and he's still alive.

[Link]

Optimistic as ever

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7mins In the bush 19 Dec 17 11.25am
Yesterday, we had our usual family gathering.... We exchange presents. A family member who lives near Horsham (I've mentioned on here that his mum moved him outta London due to him getting in trouble) got pulled over by police for having no tax and insurance, he also got done for being under the influence of drugs or in possession...i'm not sure as he stormed out the room halfway through our discussion. Straight forward right? Can't complain,.. You broke the law....take the punishment? Noooooooo, this copper pulled him over because he was black. I explained that cop cars have number plate recognition, and that's what tell the coppers to pull cars, (he also got done for driving off from a petrol station without paying in May). He then said... I bet they don't pull white drivers over... I asked for evidence of this, as I've known white drivers to get pulled for not having MOT. He then mentions something about the copper finding weed.... His mum then says.... Maybe police shouldn't pull black drivers over for minor (?) issues, she then defended her son, by saying the drug charge should be dropped, because drugs are rife... Its unfair to single her son out.... He's a good kid... And this is almost police harassment... They should be out catching peados. I'm guessing there's white kids out there that do the same, but they can't blame their skin colour... The point of this isn't to get in to a slanging match, but to point out the role of parents in bringing up their kids. Don't break the law, if you do...accept the consequences. I used to work (quite high up) for a Train Operating Company, this kids mum has always put pressure on me to get him a job (she works for London Underground, knows its a secure industry), found out yesterday he has been done countless times for ticketless travel, so they have his details,,.. No way can I get him a job now. This tale has a little bit of hope... My new career is doing up houses and selling them, I absolutely love doing it... I've agreed to give this young kid a bit of weekend work, just labouring...nowt special... I have set him ground rules. - turn up on time - no drugs - listen and learn - any further arrests, he's sacked. I am determined to give this kid a chance.. Its up to him if he takes it. I've explained it's hard work, he says he can deal with it... I will post updates. It would be good, if this was the start of something good for him.
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7mins

In the bush 19 Dec 17 11.25am

Yesterday, we had our usual family gathering.... We exchange presents. A family member who lives near Horsham (I've mentioned on here that his mum moved him outta London due to him getting in trouble) got pulled over by police for having no tax and insurance, he also got done for being under the influence of drugs or in possession...i'm not sure as he stormed out the room halfway through our discussion. Straight forward right? Can't complain,.. You broke the law....take the punishment?
Noooooooo, this copper pulled him over because he was black. I explained that cop cars have number plate recognition, and that's what tell the coppers to pull cars, (he also got done for driving off from a petrol station without paying in May). He then said... I bet they don't pull white drivers over... I asked for evidence of this, as I've known white drivers to get pulled for not having MOT. He then mentions something about the copper finding weed.... His mum then says.... Maybe police shouldn't pull black drivers over for minor (?) issues, she then defended her son, by saying the drug charge should be dropped, because drugs are rife... Its unfair to single her son out.... He's a good kid... And this is almost police harassment... They should be out catching peados.
I'm guessing there's white kids out there that do the same, but they can't blame their skin colour... The point of this isn't to get in to a slanging match, but to point out the role of parents in bringing up their kids. Don't break the law, if you do...accept the consequences.

I used to work (quite high up) for a Train Operating Company, this kids mum has always put pressure on me to get him a job (she works for London Underground, knows its a secure industry), found out yesterday he has been done countless times for ticketless travel, so they have his details,,.. No way can I get him a job now.

This tale has a little bit of hope... My new career is doing up houses and selling them, I absolutely love doing it... I've agreed to give this young kid a bit of weekend work, just labouring...nowt special... I have set him ground rules.

- turn up on time
- no drugs
- listen and learn
- any further arrests, he's sacked.

I am determined to give this kid a chance.. Its up to him if he takes it.
I've explained it's hard work, he says he can deal with it... I will post updates. It would be good, if this was the start of something good for him.

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npn Crowborough 19 Dec 17 12.24pm
Originally posted by 7mins Yesterday, we had our usual family gathering.... We exchange presents. A family member who lives near Horsham (I've mentioned on here that his mum moved him outta London due to him getting in trouble) got pulled over by police for having no tax and insurance, he also got done for being under the influence of drugs or in possession...i'm not sure as he stormed out the room halfway through our discussion. Straight forward right? Can't complain,.. You broke the law....take the punishment? Noooooooo, this copper pulled him over because he was black. I explained that cop cars have number plate recognition, and that's what tell the coppers to pull cars, (he also got done for driving off from a petrol station without paying in May). He then said... I bet they don't pull white drivers over... I asked for evidence of this, as I've known white drivers to get pulled for not having MOT. He then mentions something about the copper finding weed.... His mum then says.... Maybe police shouldn't pull black drivers over for minor (?) issues, she then defended her son, by saying the drug charge should be dropped, because drugs are rife... Its unfair to single her son out.... He's a good kid... And this is almost police harassment... They should be out catching peados. I'm guessing there's white kids out there that do the same, but they can't blame their skin colour... The point of this isn't to get in to a slanging match, but to point out the role of parents in bringing up their kids. Don't break the law, if you do...accept the consequences. I used to work (quite high up) for a Train Operating Company, this kids mum has always put pressure on me to get him a job (she works for London Underground, knows its a secure industry), found out yesterday he has been done countless times for ticketless travel, so they have his details,,.. No way can I get him a job now. This tale has a little bit of hope... My new career is doing up houses and selling them, I absolutely love doing it... I've agreed to give this young kid a bit of weekend work, just labouring...nowt special... I have set him ground rules. - turn up on time - no drugs - listen and learn - any further arrests, he's sacked. I am determined to give this kid a chance.. Its up to him if he takes it. I've explained it's hard work, he says he can deal with it... I will post updates. It would be good, if this was the start of something good for him. I don't think the excuses are specifically a colour thing, just a young "poor me, life's soooo unfair" thing. Most of us do/did it when caught bang to rights by teachers, parents, authority figures, or whatever, the first reaction is "but, but, but, it's not my fault because...{insert ridiculous reason here}", it's just that being black is an easy fall back when you have nothing else. I hope it works out with him working for you - some will take the opportunity and thrive on it (and just end up with a few tales to tell later in life), some will throw it back in your face because it's easier. Hope he's in the former camp for both your sakes.
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npn

Crowborough 19 Dec 17 12.24pm

Originally posted by 7mins

- turn up on time
- no drugs
- listen and learn
- any further arrests, he's sacked.

I don't think the excuses are specifically a colour thing, just a young "poor me, life's soooo unfair" thing. Most of us do/did it when caught bang to rights by teachers, parents, authority figures, or whatever, the first reaction is "but, but, but, it's not my fault because...{insert ridiculous reason here}", it's just that being black is an easy fall back when you have nothing else.

I hope it works out with him working for you - some will take the opportunity and thrive on it (and just end up with a few tales to tell later in life), some will throw it back in your face because it's easier. Hope he's in the former camp for both your sakes.

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Badger11 Beckenham 19 Dec 17 12.51pm
I agree with npn and 7mins. We have a victim culture in this country which cuts across race, gender, orientation etc. It is way to easy to blame the other guy rather than accept responsibility for your own actions. I have seen plenty of white guys with this attitude. My best friend is from Nigeria he reminds me of one of those inflatable clowns. If you knock him down he just bounces back up. I guess that is why I like him because of his can do attitude. Whatever happened to "we shall overcome?" 7mins all kudus to you for giving this young man a chance. Maybe by working with you and seeing the daily challenges you face will teach him that life may not be fair but you get nothing unless you put the effort in. Please do keep us posted. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 19 Dec 17 12.51pm

I agree with npn and 7mins.

We have a victim culture in this country which cuts across race, gender, orientation etc. It is way to easy to blame the other guy rather than accept responsibility for your own actions. I have seen plenty of white guys with this attitude.

My best friend is from Nigeria he reminds me of one of those inflatable clowns. If you knock him down he just bounces back up. I guess that is why I like him because of his can do attitude. Whatever happened to "we shall overcome?"

7mins all kudus to you for giving this young man a chance. Maybe by working with you and seeing the daily challenges you face will teach him that life may not be fair but you get nothing unless you put the effort in.

Please do keep us posted.

One more point

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