The Steve Parish thread
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 grumpymort  US/Thailand/UK 01 Jun 18 12.24am |
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Originally posted by robdave2k
Right let's simplify this even further. I have no tie to SP. SJ borrowed money from a fund that lends to people who can't get credit. He signed the debenture. He agreed to the terms. They called it in, he couldn't pay. That's insolvent. He signed the terms and it was legally enforceable. Read the statement of affairs. That will highlight the issues. The season ticket money in advance was used to prop up the club. It's selling something in three years in advance to pay something for last year. He had the timeframe and shouldn't have borrowed from them. Don't shoot a wolf for being a wolf. b******s yes. Legal, yes. "Never go to court on a point of principle, go on a point of law. Points of principles are expensive" You know who said that? Simon Jordan.
Life is not black & white Looking at documents which have numbers in them doesn't tell the story it shows figures but doesn't explain them. You disregard anything that is not in those documents. I would also like to point out the rate of this loan was 15% so it is nothing like these pay day loans as you like to point out but yes 15% is still fairly high and this was being paid as the terms agreed. That debt which was called in he could of paid he knew he had money coming in as I had stated many times Moses was going to be be sold for 5m+ and the Hero fund had signed agreement as well as few other bits.
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OldFella  London 01 Jun 18 12.55am |
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Originally posted by robdave2k
So I'll just cover one simple point. AGILO demanded their £4m and CPFC/SJ couldn't pay. That is the definition of insolvent. Being unable to pay your debts when they fall due. Unlike longer term debts, this was by its nature high risk finance. The balance sheet was overdrawn as well. Like the overdraft it can be called in on demand. If it was all under control AGILO wouldn't have been there. Oh and yes I did read a paper as in amongst other things. It's 317 pages long, on Companies House as a matter of public record and submitted to the DTI. You're whole argument contradicts itself - it's either a small sum of money in which case it should have been manageable, or it's a large sum which is unfair to expect people to have. If you buy a house using payday loans, don't complain if the payday loan company wants their money and couldn't give a crap about your assets. Then imagine that house is already mortgaged. CPFC in 2010 was buggered. It fell over. And no nerve hit. Too busy with my tongue up SP's backside. Everyone digging grumpymort on his grammar, it seems. Wonderboy the Accountant needs similar scrutiny......
Jackson.. Wan Bissaka.... Sansom.. Nicholas.. Cannon.. Guehi.... Zaha... Thomas.. Byrne... Holton.. Rogers.. that should do it.. |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 01 Jun 18 1.00am |
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Wasn’t the hero fund was mortgaging academy players so when they’re sold there’s little profit because they’ve paid off Jordan’s failed gamble from previous years and we either get promoted or administration anyway or wither away into league 1 in an even worse position with administration. Jordan was on borrowed on time. On a good midweek we had about 200 in the Arfur in 9th position. He created that.
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| NickinOX Sailing country. 01 Jun 18 1.49am |
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Originally posted by OldFella
Everyone digging grumpymort on his grammar, it seems. Wonderboy the Accountant needs similar scrutiny...... By everyone, you mean one poster, and by scrutiny you mean you found one error. Hyperbole at its finest, until that last bit. I think people are giving grumpymort a hard time because he has presented lots of conjecture with no real logic or actual evidence to support his position other than it appears to be his strongly held opinion. And as his writing is so bad, if he did have a point it goets lost somewhere along the way. I agree, digging out the odd grammar error, as you did above, might be annoying, especially on a forum like this, but pointing out that someone’s writing is borderline incomprehensible because of almost constant errors seems reasonable. That is especially so when the person making so many errors is seeking to persuade. If he can clearly present actual evidence, he might be believable. But since he hasn’t...
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| grumpymort US/Thailand/UK 01 Jun 18 1.50am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Wasn’t the hero fund was mortgaging academy players so when they’re sold there’s little profit because they’ve paid off Jordan’s failed gamble from previous years and we either get promoted or administration anyway or wither away into league 1 in an even worse position with administration. Jordan was on borrowed on time. On a good midweek we had about 200 in the Arfur in 9th position. He created that.
Not sure how it is now if even still going. They use a system like it in South America but rather then having third party owning player and controlling everything the clubs would and other investors could come in for things like image rights so the club would be getting all the revenue. Hero fund would take % from transfer fee so if a player never transferred they wouldn't get anything. It's not perfect but it does work and stops players that should be worth millions going for few thousand with agents and others getting fees as well. SP was the same if we had not gotten promoted we would of been in big trouble he even stated this the club was losing money this happens in lower leagues which is why you need to go up even if it means coming straight back down you get big payments. The leagues outside Prem money is awful and very unfair. I attended a lot of games back then and it wasn't that bad but just look at teams in championship now did you watch the play off games I did and I was shocked that Villa vs Mid half the ground was empty.
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| Brentmiester_General Front line in the battle against t... 01 Jun 18 6.39am |
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Look, at the end of the day SJ was doing a s***e job and was shown up for it, and was moved on in a clever and calculated fashion by CPFC2010. Any Palace fan complaining about this, and what has happened since they have been in charge, really does need their head checking. Edited by Brentmiester_General (01 Jun 2018 3.16pm)
"We love you Palace, we f@cking hate Man U, We love you Palace, we hate the brighton too, We love you Palace we play in red 'n' blue, so f@ck you, and you ... |
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| Midlands Eagle 01 Jun 18 6.50am |
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Originally posted by robdave2k
I'm happy to state my credentials - I'm chartered accountant with 20+ years experience. I've done work with P&A and latterly Begbies Traynor who took them over. I've worked with Hedge Funds, mezzanine Finance, short term funding and purchase of assets from a liquidator. I'm surprised that you didn't keep quiet about your connection to P&A Partnership whom for the benefit of those not in the financial world were investigated by HMG for fraud and who had a very unsavoury reputation within the industry
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 robdave2k 01 Jun 18 7.03am |
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Originally posted by grumpymort
Life is not black & white Looking at documents which have numbers in them doesn't tell the story it shows figures but doesn't explain them. You disregard anything that is not in those documents. I would also like to point out the rate of this loan was 15% so it is nothing like these pay day loans as you like to point out but yes 15% is still fairly high and this was being paid as the terms agreed. That debt which was called in he could of paid he knew he had money coming in as I had stated many times Moses was going to be be sold for 5m+ and the Hero fund had signed agreement as well as few other bits.
Right. The club was losing £8m a year (even after AJ was sold in one of those years) Sell Moses for £5m that might keep the lights on for a bit longer. Suddenly then your £24m playing squad isn't worth that AND you've just done your chance of promotion by selling your best player. Take out Moses and Fonte who left then value that playing squad at the end of the season at £24m. It's not me who said it was overvalued it was an independent firm of experts. Still the overdraft, HMRC debt and the fact you have no funds to buy players to deal with then. Overdraft is being breached and you are late on wages on more than one occasion. Crowds reducing, rent about to increase massively on Selhurst Park. A lot of debt that can be called in. Now for all the poison being spouted about SP it seems you think he should have gone in on day 1 and just poured money in. Paid whatever was asked. Yet here we are 7 years on just having finished 11th in the country, solvent and competing at a higher level. There were 4 of them that bought Palace, with professional advisers and they sought to mitigate their risk. I wonder if SJ took the same advice when signing up to Agilo. Now the documents of the liquidation are public but you have dismissed those out of hand. Quoting from them is being selective so I'm going to ask 5 questions. Answer these with clear, logical, supported answers and I'll concede all your statements are correct. 1. Value the playing squad at £24m without Moses and Fonte (as that valuation was provided after this) If you read Jordan's book it covers Agilo. You can't borrow from the devil and then complain when the devil wants his money back. I very much doubt SP went - "you know that football club is like to own that, I know I'll poison everyone so I can get it cheap". Only to be stuck with a lower tier, Championship squad that needs massive investment. Remember the first 4 months of Burley?, I do. That club had been poisoned from the inside for years before, mismanaged and misfinanced. Thank Christ SP is competent. I like SJ. But he was woefully out of his depth. Has SP been perfect - no, but you have to respect what he has achieved. I have to say your ramblings about "things that went on" are a bit like Steve Bruce when he buggered off to Birmingham. He always said there were two sides, yet here we are 16 years on and never been a word. Did SP and co play hardball? Yes quite probably. Mind you if they hadn't we would probably be due another administration.
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| robdave2k 01 Jun 18 7.06am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
I'm surprised that you didn't keep quiet about your connection to P&A Partnership whom for the benefit of those not in the financial world were investigated by HMG for fraud and who had a very unsavoury reputation within the industry Couldn't avoid the connection , sometimes you have to work with people based on a set of circumstances. You deal with what's in front of you. I've my own opinion on Insolvency Practitioners in general, not one I'd care to put here
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| Midlands Eagle 01 Jun 18 7.41am |
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Originally posted by robdave2k
We agree on that at least
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 01 Jun 18 2.05pm |
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Originally posted by grumpymort
Not sure how it is now if even still going. They use a system like it in South America but rather then having third party owning player and controlling everything the clubs would and other investors could come in for things like image rights so the club would be getting all the revenue. Hero fund would take % from transfer fee so if a player never transferred they wouldn't get anything. It's not perfect but it does work and stops players that should be worth millions going for few thousand with agents and others getting fees as well. SP was the same if we had not gotten promoted we would of been in big trouble he even stated this the club was losing money this happens in lower leagues which is why you need to go up even if it means coming straight back down you get big payments. The leagues outside Prem money is awful and very unfair. I attended a lot of games back then and it wasn't that bad but just look at teams in championship now did you watch the play off games I did and I was shocked that Villa vs Mid half the ground was empty. Parish went on hol radio to say we were losing and going to keep losing £5 mil per year as a championship club but he was going to cover that with player sales. To begin with there was Nathaniel Clyne, Ambrose and Scannell sold to almost cover one year and then Zaha covered just over 2 years. That’s very normal and sensible football and business management. Please tell me how it isn’t. Zaha likely to go at the end of that season at the probable latest was why there was pressure on Freedman from Parish and co in the Bristol car park. We brought in cheaper players like Bolasie and Murray and Jedinak and Delaney and Moritz and used Garvan as a quarterback in a league he could handle the pace. Again, tell me what is so bad about that compared to the many players Jordan signed in the championship for the usual £1 mil. Paul Ifill and Nick Carle stick out and Alan Lee at £750k or 800 wasn’t that good either. Jordan made the mistake of not investing enough in the prem and instead throwing more and more money at promotion in the championship although the Cahill transfer we were used as a pawn and Dean Ashton took Dario Gradi’s advice and chose Norwich over us and arguably would’ve stayed up with us so Jordan was a little unlucky although we did rely on one trick or two with AJ. His injury the following season, a poor 1st leg vs Watford and a young Ashley Young was exactly when it started to go belly up with chucking money about he should’ve held back on to wait until it was worth it. Edited by Rudi Hedman (01 Jun 2018 2.06pm)
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| Brentmiester_General Front line in the battle against t... 01 Jun 18 3.19pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Parish went on hol radio to say we were losing and going to keep losing £5 mil per year as a championship club but he was going to cover that with player sales. To begin with there was Nathaniel Clyne, Ambrose and Scannell sold to almost cover one year and then Zaha covered just over 2 years. That’s very normal and sensible football and business management. Please tell me how it isn’t. Zaha likely to go at the end of that season at the probable latest was why there was pressure on Freedman from Parish and co in the Bristol car park. We brought in cheaper players like Bolasie and Murray and Jedinak and Delaney and Moritz and used Garvan as a quarterback in a league he could handle the pace. Again, tell me what is so bad about that compared to the many players Jordan signed in the championship for the usual £1 mil. Paul Ifill and Nick Carle stick out and Alan Lee at £750k or 800 wasn’t that good either. Jordan made the mistake of not investing enough in the prem and instead throwing more and more money at promotion in the championship although the Cahill transfer we were used as a pawn and Dean Ashton took Dario Gradi’s advice and chose Norwich over us and arguably would’ve stayed up with us so Jordan was a little unlucky although we did rely on one trick or two with AJ. His injury the following season, a poor 1st leg vs Watford and a young Ashley Young was exactly when it started to go belly up with chucking money about he should’ve held back on to wait until it was worth it. Edited by Rudi Hedman (01 Jun 2018 2.06pm) Garvan was a quarterback?
"We love you Palace, we f@cking hate Man U, We love you Palace, we hate the brighton too, We love you Palace we play in red 'n' blue, so f@ck you, and you ... |
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