Have we really made progress ?

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 25 Oct 18 11.43pm
Originally posted by TheExpatEagle Another question that I think needs answering is why does it seem that managers go off the boil once they have been with the club after 8-12 months? Is it working with Parish? Is it that they can't motivate the players? Is it they can't motivate themselves? We all know who our managers have been and apart from Warnock (poor 5 months after being thrown in at the deep end) and FdB (poor 4 games after not being backed financially and maybe not understanding the size of the job) they have all had a good first 8-12 months then either have left or gone off the boil. Holloway - walked after 11 months which saw us promoted. Pulis - walked after great 8 months. Pardew - great first 12 months (end of one, start of next) then awful. Allardyce - great 6 months then 'retired' Hodgson - great 9 months now poor. Parish comes across as a likeable guy but something isn't right behind the scenes. I am not the only one who never believed Allardyce retired. Edited by TheExpatEagle (25 Oct 2018 8.44pm) I’ll attempt to answer this. I think the Prem average when the manager goes from it running well to they can’t get a tune or response out of the players is around 18 months. That would involve 3 transfer windows and about the time a manager can really make the team and quite a bit of the squad his own. Therefore if he can get it fitting together nicely, he can also cause it to come apart at the seams, and that may also include things like bad man management over a long enough period of time that the disgruntlement sets in and spreads. This is English footballers and not the Italian players that graduated with discipline, or they didn’t make it. Think Fabio Capello. With Palace it’ll have a lot to do with 2 transfer windows during the 8-12 months. Parish and the board will give the manager a first budget that’s competitive and realistic. The 2nd transfer window or maybe next season and possibly 3rd window the manager will receive a budget that’s not competitive enough, risking the Prem status and the manager’s record. If it’s not because the club have to it’ll be because Parish and/or the board have seen the manager do such a good job and decide he can deliver the same again, or less on a smaller budget but enough to scrape by in 17th. Or they’ll think (hope) that there are 3 worse teams than us so 17th based on that every season is achievable, only now the promoted teams are different spending and confident ball playing teams. Part of these good window followed by bad windows repeats are because of the fire fighting. There is a vicious circle going on and sometimes the manager has experienced the good and bad or experienced just the bad. The club then can’t afford a good window due to FFP or they think (hope) he’ll deliver outstanding work from an imbalanced squad that deserves to be bottom 4-5 all season unless again they over spend in January on the players that were needed to begin with in August. The management of this, the scouting and planning has been very bad, and some of the football philosophy changes with Pardew and Frank were so naive it’s almost unbelievable. Parish does a great job of fire fighting, up to now, but to begin with the decisions leave us vulnerable, and then the vicious circles begin. The question is, will it send us into a tailspin? Let’s hope not. Should’ve had a football man say it how it is, but Parish likes acquiescent people desperate for work. Anybody who speaks up leaves. There has to be an understanding and some challenging from both in that relationship but I get the impression that for the reasons above, the managers are wasting their time saying anything once they’ve delivered the first survival. Sometimes Parish will be right to stick to the decisions but a lot of the time the manager will be under pressure because of the previous fire fight or more of them. Edited by Rudi Hedman (25 Oct 2018 11.49pm) COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 25 Oct 18 11.43pm

Originally posted by TheExpatEagle

Another question that I think needs answering is why does it seem that managers go off the boil once they have been with the club after 8-12 months?

Is it working with Parish? Is it that they can't motivate the players? Is it they can't motivate themselves?

We all know who our managers have been and apart from Warnock (poor 5 months after being thrown in at the deep end) and FdB (poor 4 games after not being backed financially and maybe not understanding the size of the job) they have all had a good first 8-12 months then either have left or gone off the boil.

Holloway - walked after 11 months which saw us promoted.
Pulis - walked after great 8 months.
Pardew - great first 12 months (end of one, start of next) then awful.
Allardyce - great 6 months then 'retired'
Hodgson - great 9 months now poor.

Parish comes across as a likeable guy but something isn't right behind the scenes. I am not the only one who never believed Allardyce retired.

Edited by TheExpatEagle (25 Oct 2018 8.44pm)

I’ll attempt to answer this. I think the Prem average when the manager goes from it running well to they can’t get a tune or response out of the players is around 18 months. That would involve 3 transfer windows and about the time a manager can really make the team and quite a bit of the squad his own. Therefore if he can get it fitting together nicely, he can also cause it to come apart at the seams, and that may also include things like bad man management over a long enough period of time that the disgruntlement sets in and spreads. This is English footballers and not the Italian players that graduated with discipline, or they didn’t make it. Think Fabio Capello.

With Palace it’ll have a lot to do with 2 transfer windows during the 8-12 months. Parish and the board will give the manager a first budget that’s competitive and realistic. The 2nd transfer window or maybe next season and possibly 3rd window the manager will receive a budget that’s not competitive enough, risking the Prem status and the manager’s record. If it’s not because the club have to it’ll be because Parish and/or the board have seen the manager do such a good job and decide he can deliver the same again, or less on a smaller budget but enough to scrape by in 17th. Or they’ll think (hope) that there are 3 worse teams than us so 17th based on that every season is achievable, only now the promoted teams are different spending and confident ball playing teams.

Part of these good window followed by bad windows repeats are because of the fire fighting. There is a vicious circle going on and sometimes the manager has experienced the good and bad or experienced just the bad. The club then can’t afford a good window due to FFP or they think (hope) he’ll deliver outstanding work from an imbalanced squad that deserves to be bottom 4-5 all season unless again they over spend in January on the players that were needed to begin with in August.

The management of this, the scouting and planning has been very bad, and some of the football philosophy changes with Pardew and Frank were so naive it’s almost unbelievable. Parish does a great job of fire fighting, up to now, but to begin with the decisions leave us vulnerable, and then the vicious circles begin. The question is, will it send us into a tailspin? Let’s hope not.

Should’ve had a football man say it how it is, but Parish likes acquiescent people desperate for work. Anybody who speaks up leaves. There has to be an understanding and some challenging from both in that relationship but I get the impression that for the reasons above, the managers are wasting their time saying anything once they’ve delivered the first survival. Sometimes Parish will be right to stick to the decisions but a lot of the time the manager will be under pressure because of the previous fire fight or more of them.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (25 Oct 2018 11.49pm)

COYP

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CrazyBadger Ware 26 Oct 18 10.27am
Originally posted by TheExpatEagle Another question that I think needs answering is why does it seem that managers go off the boil once they have been with the club after 8-12 months? Is it working with Parish? Is it that they can't motivate the players? Is it they can't motivate themselves? We all know who our managers have been and apart from Warnock (poor 5 months after being thrown in at the deep end) and FdB (poor 4 games after not being backed financially and maybe not understanding the size of the job) they have all had a good first 8-12 months then either have left or gone off the boil. Holloway - walked after 11 months which saw us promoted. Pulis - walked after great 8 months. Pardew - great first 12 months (end of one, start of next) then awful. Allardyce - great 6 months then 'retired' Hodgson - great 9 months now poor. Parish comes across as a likeable guy but something isn't right behind the scenes. I am not the only one who never believed Allardyce retired. New Managers that initialy have success are often working off the back of the last manager, when they have contradictory styles. It happens time and time again - most notably, and successfully in the PL era when Wenger took over from Graham at Arsenal. Arsenal were a very solid team not conceeding too many goals, and not scoring a whole load either. Wenger came in, built on that and added european flair (and tbf a while lot of fitness regimes) and he had for a long time a good balanced side. Another example is Ranieri's Leicester. Now look at The managers above. Each one had a period of success until their own style became dominant, and they Lost the benefits of their predecessors style: Holloway - primarily attacking and expressive football. Pulis - Defensive minded. added organisation adn defensive steel to Holloways expression. (left before style was ingrainied fully) Pardew - flair and attacking, inherited a team from Pulis which was already in a good place. s Allardyce - disciplined and Organised, 'Retired' early, although early indications was that he wasn't reverting to his 'long ball' reputation. FDB - Tried to take Allardyces well oiled diesel engine and turn it into a v6(without buying any of The parts!) Hodgson - again disciplined and Organised, inherited a squad that showed signs of the work FDB was doing, and added organisation to it. With the exception of Fergie, who was the only manager that managed to reinvent his squad several times over his tenure, It seems to me that this is why all managers only last a maximum of 18-24 months. The really good managers are able to achieve when either taking over at a club playing a similar style(see Guardiola) or once that period is up and his style is dominant, still continues to Get success (see Pochettino) Edited by CrazyBadger (26 Oct 2018 10.29am) "It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"
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CrazyBadger

Ware 26 Oct 18 10.27am

Originally posted by TheExpatEagle

Another question that I think needs answering is why does it seem that managers go off the boil once they have been with the club after 8-12 months?

Is it working with Parish? Is it that they can't motivate the players? Is it they can't motivate themselves?

Parish comes across as a likeable guy but something isn't right behind the scenes. I am not the only one who never believed Allardyce retired.

New Managers that initialy have success are often working off the back of the last manager, when they have contradictory styles. It happens time and time again - most notably, and successfully in the PL era when Wenger took over from Graham at Arsenal. Arsenal were a very solid team not conceeding too many goals, and not scoring a whole load either. Wenger came in, built on that and added european flair (and tbf a while lot of fitness regimes) and he had for a long time a good balanced side. Another example is Ranieri's Leicester.
Now look at The managers above. Each one had a period of success until their own style became dominant, and they Lost the benefits of their predecessors style:

Holloway - primarily attacking and expressive football.
Pulis - Defensive minded. added organisation adn defensive steel to Holloways expression. (left before style was ingrainied fully)
Pardew - flair and attacking, inherited a team from Pulis which was already in a good place. s
Allardyce - disciplined and Organised, 'Retired' early, although early indications was that he wasn't reverting to his 'long ball' reputation.
FDB - Tried to take Allardyces well oiled diesel engine and turn it into a v6(without buying any of The parts!)
Hodgson - again disciplined and Organised, inherited a squad that showed signs of the work FDB was doing, and added organisation to it.

With the exception of Fergie, who was the only manager that managed to reinvent his squad several times over his tenure, It seems to me that this is why all managers only last a maximum of 18-24 months. The really good managers are able to achieve when either taking over at a club playing a similar style(see Guardiola) or once that period is up and his style is dominant, still continues to Get success (see Pochettino)

Edited by CrazyBadger (26 Oct 2018 10.29am)

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

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bexleydave Barnehurst 26 Oct 18 10.54am
Originally posted by CrazyBadger With the exception of Fergie, who was the only manager that managed to reinvent his squad several times over his tenure, It seems to me that this is why all managers only last a maximum of 18-24 months. Eddie Howe seems to be doing OK at Bournemouth. Bexley Dave Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing! "The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)
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bexleydave

Barnehurst 26 Oct 18 10.54am

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

Eddie Howe seems to be doing OK at Bournemouth.

Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

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CrazyBadger Ware 26 Oct 18 11.12am
Originally posted by bexleydave Eddie Howe seems to be doing OK at Bournemouth. yes he does. He is another good example of one manager who has stamped his own style - and has managed a modicum of Success with it. "It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"
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CrazyBadger

Ware 26 Oct 18 11.12am

Originally posted by bexleydave

Eddie Howe seems to be doing OK at Bournemouth.

yes he does. He is another good example of one manager who has stamped his own style - and has managed a modicum of Success with it.

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Oct 18 11.13am
Originally posted by bexleydave Eddie Howe seems to be doing OK at Bournemouth. Good for him because there’s doubts over whether he could achieve elsewhere, for very long as discussed anyway. Fergie, Wenger and Pochettino could or could have, until Wenger became the chief accountant’s best friend, or the acting club accountant. Could be the same for Sean Dyche, but because of his ability in the championship he is and was a sensible consideration, but we want to push on (I just want to be 2 results clear of 18th), and why would be come here anyway? It’s hardly much of a step up right now. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 Oct 18 11.13am

Originally posted by bexleydave

Eddie Howe seems to be doing OK at Bournemouth.

Good for him because there’s doubts over whether he could achieve elsewhere, for very long as discussed anyway. Fergie, Wenger and Pochettino could or could have, until Wenger became the chief accountant’s best friend, or the acting club accountant.

Could be the same for Sean Dyche, but because of his ability in the championship he is and was a sensible consideration, but we want to push on (I just want to be 2 results clear of 18th), and why would be come here anyway? It’s hardly much of a step up right now.

COYP

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CrazyBadger Ware 26 Oct 18 11.22am
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Good for him because there’s doubts over whether he could achieve elsewhere, for very long as discussed anyway. Fergie, Wenger and Pochettino could or could have, until Wenger became the chief accountant’s best friend, or the acting club accountant. Could be the same for Sean Dyche, but because of his ability in the championship he is and was a sensible consideration, but we want to push on (I just want to be 2 results clear of 18th), and why would be come here anyway? It’s hardly much of a step up right now. I'd argue that Wenger didn't acheive much once his Invincibles dissapated, and Henry finally left. It's this that elavates Fergie above him imo. "It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"
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CrazyBadger

Ware 26 Oct 18 11.22am

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Good for him because there’s doubts over whether he could achieve elsewhere, for very long as discussed anyway. Fergie, Wenger and Pochettino could or could have, until Wenger became the chief accountant’s best friend, or the acting club accountant.

I'd argue that Wenger didn't acheive much once his Invincibles dissapated, and Henry finally left. It's this that elavates Fergie above him imo.

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Oct 18 11.37am
Originally posted by CrazyBadger I'd argue that Wenger didn't acheive much once his Invincibles dissapated, and Henry finally left. It's this that elavates Fergie above him imo. Yes you may be right. Wenger benefitted from Graham’s back 4 plus Steve Bould and the several French players he knew and could sign at a time when nobody knew much about them, and for relative pennies. He may have done at least alright elsewhere but not necessarily excelling there. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 Oct 18 11.37am

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

I'd argue that Wenger didn't acheive much once his Invincibles dissapated, and Henry finally left. It's this that elavates Fergie above him imo.

Yes you may be right. Wenger benefitted from Graham’s back 4 plus Steve Bould and the several French players he knew and could sign at a time when nobody knew much about them, and for relative pennies.

He may have done at least alright elsewhere but not necessarily excelling there.

COYP

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Den1923 26 Oct 18 12.18pm
Originally posted by Bert's Boys No. No improvement at the ground (Arthur Wait is still shocking)we have a new stand being built - when? delays already on that. The team is no further forward. Decent managers couldn't wait to go (Allardyce, Pulis)whilst mediocre and below average one's (Pardew)stayed well past their sell by date. Sorry, but the blame falls squarely on Parish's shoulders. Correct!
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Den1923

26 Oct 18 12.18pm

Originally posted by Bert's Boys

No.
No improvement at the ground (Arthur Wait is still shocking)we have a new stand being built - when? delays already on that.
The team is no further forward.
Decent managers couldn't wait to go (Allardyce, Pulis)whilst mediocre and below average one's (Pardew)stayed well past their sell by date.
Sorry, but the blame falls squarely on Parish's shoulders.

Correct!

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Maine Eagle USA 26 Oct 18 1.34pm
Originally posted by Painter I disagree with your last statement. It is the manager and coaches job to improve and get the best out of their players. For all their good points, Roy and Ray have failed in the striker department. Benteke was a top striker a few years ago, he has gone backwards under Roy, why? It’s an easy cop out to blame the chairman, but isn’t working with the players everyday. Yes it’s very easy to blame the chairman because he is ultimately responsible to sign players. He also has ultimate say on releasing players like Glenn Murray. I agree that the management and use of Benteke has possibly been poor under RH, but as a manager you need options. Hennessey is playing out of his skin as he now has a genuine rival for his role. We were in for Tosun, we had Niasse in the building, the list goes on and on. I am afraid signing Sorloth and Ayew is not good enough after last year. At the very least we need a viable target man just to press Benteke into some kind of form, or plan B to take his spot. I don’t think Benteke was worried about losing his place when Sorloth walked in. We don’t have enough half decent options in attack, that’s not down to the manager. Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.
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Maine Eagle

USA 26 Oct 18 1.34pm

Originally posted by Painter

I disagree with your last statement. It is the manager and coaches job to improve and get the best out of their players. For all their good points, Roy and Ray have failed in the striker department. Benteke was a top striker a few years ago, he has gone backwards under Roy, why?
It’s an easy cop out to blame the chairman, but isn’t working with the players everyday.

Yes it’s very easy to blame the chairman because he is ultimately responsible to sign players. He also has ultimate say on releasing players like Glenn Murray.

I agree that the management and use of Benteke has possibly been poor under RH, but as a manager you need options.

Hennessey is playing out of his skin as he now has a genuine rival for his role.

We were in for Tosun, we had Niasse in the building, the list goes on and on.

I am afraid signing Sorloth and Ayew is not good enough after last year. At the very least we need a viable target man just to press Benteke into some kind of form, or plan B to take his spot. I don’t think Benteke was worried about losing his place when Sorloth walked in.

We don’t have enough half decent options in attack, that’s not down to the manager.

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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est1905 26 Oct 18 5.30pm
Originally posted by Del7 6 years as a Premiership club, whilst we have survived .... have we really made progress or are we just delusional.... after today’s result (Everton) it looks like it’s going to be another skin of the pants season ... I feel for Roy, a throughly decent bloke but he must be wondering what he has to do to get the team to play for 96 minutes plus ... individual mistakes litter our game and we get punished on many occasions.... I love my club but I hate every Monday having to go into work to discuss the recent result. ... What do we have to do to get a result, November for me has been written off so if we get as much as a point I’ll be delighted, if not shocked. Please, please can we just win ugly ? Our team (only our first 11 mind you) is stronger than when we were promoted. Apart from that, and of course the owners being a lot richer and having some fancy cladding on the outside of the main stand, no we have not progressed. We still have a weak bench with no game changers we can bring on. We are in a relegation battle every single year (and this one wont be an exception) and we dont seem to learn from our mistakes. We might stay up this year but only because there are three teams that are potentially worse than us although that fact does not always save you. We've been better than teams directly above us in the past and still gone down. When you think about it I am actually amazed we are still in the Premiership.
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est1905

26 Oct 18 5.30pm

Originally posted by Del7

6 years as a Premiership club, whilst we have survived .... have we really made progress or are we just delusional.... after today’s result (Everton) it looks like it’s going to be another skin of the pants season ... I feel for Roy, a throughly decent bloke but he must be wondering what he has to do to get the team to play for 96 minutes plus ... individual mistakes litter our game and we get punished on many occasions.... I love my club but I hate every Monday having to go into work to discuss the recent result. ... What do we have to do to get a result, November for me has been written off so if we get as much as a point I’ll be delighted, if not shocked.
Please, please can we just win ugly ?

Our team (only our first 11 mind you) is stronger than when we were promoted.
Apart from that, and of course the owners being a lot richer and having some fancy cladding on the outside of the main stand, no we have not progressed.
We still have a weak bench with no game changers we can bring on. We are in a relegation battle every single year (and this one wont be an exception) and we dont seem to learn from our mistakes.
We might stay up this year but only because there are three teams that are potentially worse than us although that fact does not always save you. We've been better than teams directly above us in the past and still gone down.
When you think about it I am actually amazed we are still in the Premiership.

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 26 Oct 18 6.54pm
I suspect individual supporters have different criteria with regard to what they consider 'Progress'. Looking at our league placement since we last got promoted to the PL, we have finished between 10th and 15th,averaging 12th place so just in the bottom half. In our first season back we finished 11th, last season we finished 11th so some would argue based on this we haven't progressed, however a club of our standing cannot expect to progess placement wise season after season.If we did we would end up PL Champions ! Edited by Willo (26 Oct 2018 7.05pm)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 26 Oct 18 6.54pm

I suspect individual supporters have different criteria with regard to what they consider 'Progress'.

Looking at our league placement since we last got promoted to the PL, we have finished between 10th and 15th,averaging 12th place so just in the bottom half.

In our first season back we finished 11th, last season we finished 11th so some would argue based on this we haven't progressed, however a club of our standing cannot expect to progess placement wise season after season.If we did we would end up PL Champions !

Edited by Willo (26 Oct 2018 7.05pm)

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chateauferret 26 Oct 18 7.49pm
Originally posted by Willo I suspect individual supporters have different criteria with regard to what they consider 'Progress'. Edited by Willo (26 Oct 2018 7.05pm) Progress to me is being less s*e than we were last season. At the moment we're less se than we were this time last season, but compared with what we were doing in May we're pretty toilet. And I suppose if you want progress you have to take steps to secure it, and that means signing the players you need to improve your performances. This is not the same thing as hoping one of your players who has been s for a year will suddenly stop being s, or that one of your players who has been out of the game for nearly two years will suddenly turn into an indestructible version of Harry Kane. OTOH if progress is being less s**e than we were half a dozen seasons ago then yes, taking one year with another we have made progress, in a kind of three steps forward two back kind of way. ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

26 Oct 18 7.49pm

Originally posted by Willo

I suspect individual supporters have different criteria with regard to what they consider 'Progress'.

Edited by Willo (26 Oct 2018 7.05pm)

Progress to me is being less s***e than we were last season. At the moment we're less s***e than we were this time last season, but compared with what we were doing in May we're pretty toilet.

And I suppose if you want progress you have to take steps to secure it, and that means signing the players you need to improve your performances. This is not the same thing as hoping one of your players who has been s*** for a year will suddenly stop being s***, or that one of your players who has been out of the game for nearly two years will suddenly turn into an indestructible version of Harry Kane.

OTOH if progress is being less s***e than we were half a dozen seasons ago then yes, taking one year with another we have made progress, in a kind of three steps forward two back kind of way.

============
The Ferret
============

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