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October 19 2019 10.47am

Billy Vunipola and Isreal Folau

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 17 Apr 19 5.31pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Folau sacked from rugby for stating religious views on social media. Basically citing the Bible that homosexuals will be punished.
Billy Vunipola seriously castigated for agreeing with Folau.
My take on this, is that - these people should be entitled to their religious beliefs - whether we agree with them or not.
Perhaps best not to post these beliefs on social media but it is supposedly a free world.

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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 17 Apr 19 5.51pm Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Folau sacked from rugby for stating religious views on social media. Basically citing the Bible that homosexuals will be punished.
Billy Vunipola seriously castigated for agreeing with Folau.
My take on this, is that - these people should be entitled to their religious beliefs - whether we agree with them or not.
Perhaps best not to post these beliefs on social media but it is supposedly a free world.

[Link]

Sounds like you'll be happy to take the ISIS schoolgirl in then? I mean, she's only been being guided by her religious convictions after all. Her husbands possible crimes are not hers. Free country and all that.

When you're a member of a team, and represent your nation, I think it's preferable to act like you do. It's a privilege to be in a position where you are idolised for your abilities, and it's a shame for it to be used to push hatred and hell at people. Saying 'it's my religious belief' isn't a magic umbrella that removed responsibility for how you treat others. It's bad publicly. If you sully something that you are supposed to represent, if may impact how your contribution is received. He'd already had a warning and can't follow rules. I wouldn't have sacked him though. Instead I'd have asked the team if his self indulgent distractions were impacting the team dynamic and were an unhelpful distraction, and then base the decision on that.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Online Flag 17 Apr 19 6.00pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

Sounds like you'll be happy to take the ISIS schoolgirl in then? I mean, she's only been being guided by her religious convictions after all. Her husbands possible crimes are not hers. Free country and all that.

When you're a member of a team, and represent your nation, I think it's preferable to act like you do. It's a privilege to be in a position where you are idolised for your abilities, and it's a shame for it to be used to push hatred and hell at people. Saying 'it's my religious belief' isn't a magic umbrella that removed responsibility for how you treat others. It's bad publicly. If you sully something that you are supposed to represent, if may impact how your contribution is received. He'd already had a warning and can't follow rules. I wouldn't have sacked him though. Instead I'd have asked the team if his self indulgent distractions were impacting the team dynamic and were an unhelpful distraction, and then base the decision on that.

One possible difference is that neither player left their home country to join a militant group intent on causing harm to others.

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 17 Apr 19 6.01pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

Sounds like you'll be happy to take the ISIS schoolgirl in then? I mean, she's only been being guided by her religious convictions after all. Her husbands possible crimes are not hers. Free country and all that.

When you're a member of a team, and represent your nation, I think it's preferable to act like you do. It's a privilege to be in a position where you are idolised for your abilities, and it's a shame for it to be used to push hatred and hell at people. Saying 'it's my religious belief' isn't a magic umbrella that removed responsibility for how you treat others. It's bad publicly. If you sully something that you are supposed to represent, if may impact how your contribution is received. He'd already had a warning and can't follow rules. I wouldn't have sacked him though. Instead I'd have asked the team if his self indulgent distractions were impacting the team dynamic and were an unhelpful distraction, and then base the decision on that.

As far as I'm aware - Islam espouses hatred towards homosexuals all of the time. It is part of their religion. They also don't like alcohol or pork just to let you know. As far as I know, Muslims are free to air these views.
You certainly have something on the representation side and on the effects on team-mates. That is why it would be best to not make these views public - in my opinion.
However, perhaps they should be allowed these views and why should their religious beliefs affect their job? That is the debate really. Not sure which side you are coming down on. Sounds like you want to sack all people with religious beliefs that don't suit your agenda.
I love the line that I must take Shamima Begum in, simply because I have stated people should be freely allowed to express views.
Nowhere did I say I agreed with the views. I just believe that Vunipola and Folau can think what they like - without getting the sack for it.

 


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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 17 Apr 19 6.20pm Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

Originally posted by ASCPFC

As far as I'm aware - Islam espouses hatred towards homosexuals all of the time. It is part of their religion. They also don't like alcohol or pork just to let you know. As far as I know, Muslims are free to air these views.

You certainly have something on the representation side and on the effects on team-mates. That is why it would be best to not make these views public - in my opinion.
However, perhaps they should be allowed these views and why should their religious beliefs affect their job? That is the debate really. Not sure which side you are coming down on. Sounds like you want to sack all people with religious beliefs that don't suit your agenda.
I love the line that I must take Shamima Begum in, simply because I have stated people should be freely allowed to express views.
Nowhere did I say I agreed with the views. I just believe that Vunipola and Folau can think what they like - without getting the sack for it.

This has occurred primarily due to the high profile of the individual involved.

So whoever in his position said this and whatever the religion it would've ignited. That said, I do think within society there has been a hands off approach with certain religions for too long, and it helps no-one resulting in parallel societies and values that are worlds apart.

My comments about taking Shamima Begum in were tongue in cheek. I'm all over that thread saying that we should never let her back into the country. I do however appreciate that there are aspects of freedom of speech to her situation. I understand that in taking the stance I did, I'm saying that I don't particularly think that someone making unnecessary and extreme statements based on a religious belief should be given endless benefit of the doubt or a free pass in society.


Edited by dollardays (17 Apr 2019 6.28pm)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 17 Apr 19 6.36pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

Sounds like you'll be happy to take the ISIS schoolgirl in then? I mean, she's only been being guided by her religious convictions after all. Her husbands possible crimes are not hers. Free country and all that.

When you're a member of a team, and represent your nation, I think it's preferable to act like you do. It's a privilege to be in a position where you are idolised for your abilities, and it's a shame for it to be used to push hatred and hell at people. Saying 'it's my religious belief' isn't a magic umbrella that removed responsibility for how you treat others. It's bad publicly. If you sully something that you are supposed to represent, if may impact how your contribution is received. He'd already had a warning and can't follow rules. I wouldn't have sacked him though. Instead I'd have asked the team if his self indulgent distractions were impacting the team dynamic and were an unhelpful distraction, and then base the decision on that.

I'm sorry but comparing the expression of religious beliefs about what would happen to people in the imaginary hereafter with the realities of someone who joins an actual group dedicated to actually throwing homosexuals off of roof tops and anyone else who gets in their way is sheer hyperbole.

If somebody doesn't like homosexuality it is a disgrace that they get their living taken away. Thoughts are not action.

I don't like gay activists, there was a time when it was a noble thing but now in fact I think they are among the biggest pain in the arses around. I think the correctness of making homosexuality legal where it isn't greeted with state interference or punishment has slowly turned into the absurd situation where any expression of not supporting it is greeted with punishment.

Clown world.


Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Apr 2019 6.40pm)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 17 Apr 19 6.43pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Social conservatives voted in liberalism because they listened to fair arguments.

Now social conservatives are the persecuted.....they keep their heads down in many professions because of stuff like this.

What were liberals then turned into authoritarians once they gained hegemony.

Seems a rather nasty lesson to me.


Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Apr 2019 6.45pm)

 

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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 17 Apr 19 6.49pm Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I'm sorry but comparing the expression of religious beliefs about what would happen to people in the imaginary hereafter with the realities of someone who joins an actual group dedicated to actually throwing homosexuals off of roof tops and anyone else who gets in their way is sheer hyperbole.

If somebody doesn't like homosexuality it is a disgrace that they get their living taken away. Thoughts are not action.

I don't like gay activists, in fact I think they are among the biggest pain in the arses around. I think the correctness of making homosexuality legal has slowly turned into the absurd situation where any expression of not supporting it is greeted with punishment.

Clown world.

She went to live with someone with extreme views, who may have taken things further. My point, in a absolutist freedom of speech point of view is that I have no reason to believe she's actually done anything harmful other than holding abhorrent and extreme religous views and that when I said that I didn't want her let back into the country, I factored that in and still came to the same decision.

Gay activists didn't make this decision. Ordinary people by and large don't agree with extreme statements like these. I don't care if anyone supports homosexuality or not. Repeatedly publicly proclaiming that people are going to hell despite being warned goes beyond an act of non support, and is certainly not helpful to anyone.

In addition to previously saying that you have gay family members, you've also rattled on repeatedly about how homosexuality is a 'lifestyle you don't like'. If someone can't even be bothered to empathise with and support the challenges of those within their own family, It's hardly rocket science to see how they're going to perceive issues like this.

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 17 Apr 19 6.54pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Folau will be a huge loss to Aussie rugby. Basically their best player.
Billy Vunipola seems like he is going to tow the line - happily for England rugby.
Should Folau have been sacked? One question I would like to ask is this - surely it is wrongful dismissal to be sacked for expressing religious beliefs? I'm not sure of Australian law (surely similar to ours). Obviously can't comment on his contract. Put yourself in his shoes - would you be entitled to large compensation - or are we in a world where these views are policed enough to lose your job?
I know I would not post plenty of my beliefs on social media. I would be far more guarded. Is that really how things should be?

 


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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Apr 19 6.58pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

I don't agree with the comments made by Folau but neither do I like the "group think" mentality that has sprung up.

If we represent our country do we all have to think the same now? So what happening to embracing diversity or does that only count if it's the right type of diversity.

If he had made these comments about a fellow player I can understand sacking him as it is personal and insulting. I would have preferred it if the Aussie RFU had made it clear that these were his views not theirs and left it at that.

Oh well 4 legs good...

 


One more point

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 17 Apr 19 7.05pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

She went to live with someone with extreme views, who may have taken things further.

Well yeah, if you want to reduce it down as much as possible....but that makes it sound like she just went down the road just because she liked some iffy bloke.


Originally posted by dollardays

My point, in a absolutist freedom of speech point of view is that I have no reason to believe she's actually done anything harmful other than holding abhorrent and extreme religous views and that when I said that I didn't want her let back into the country, I factored that in and still came to the same decision.

I've listened to both sides on this and there are points of principle on both sides, I'm probably 60/40 against. When the child was alive I was strongly in favour of provision for the child.....now this is about a hundred miles from a hill I care that much about.

Originally posted by dollardays

Gay activists didn't make this decision. Ordinary people by and large don't agree with extreme statements like these. I don't care if anyone supports homosexuality or not. Repeatedly publicly proclaiming that people are going to hell despite being warned goes beyond an act of non support, and is certainly not helpful to anyone.

In addition to previously saying that you have gay family members, you've also rattled on repeatedly about how homosexuality is a 'lifestyle you don't like'. If someone can't even be bothered to empathise with and support the challenges of those within their own family, It's hardly rocket science to see how they're going to perceive issues like this.

With respect if you are going to comment on my personal life....which is fine as I gave out that info....then you have to understand that you don't know much about the situation. So deducing this or that from where you are is a bit pointless.

I do have some empathy for situations around this, but I also have stronger convictions around fairness generally and I don't believe in taking away people's livelihoods because they say they don't like this or that group....the response is far too extreme itself

Sure it may be distasteful to say people are going to hell but it's religiously consistent from a certain religious perspective. I of course disagree with him but there was no incitement there....Muhammad Ali called all white people 'devils' and white people continued to give him millions. That's because he lived in a society that was far fairer than this one.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Apr 2019 7.08pm)

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 17 Apr 19 7.06pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

I don't agree with the comments made by Folau but neither do I like the "group think" mentality that has sprung up.

If we represent our country do we all have to think the same now? So what happening to embracing diversity or does that only count if it's the right type of diversity.

If he had made these comments about a fellow player I can understand sacking him as it is personal and insulting. I would have preferred it if the Aussie RFU had made it clear that these were his views not theirs and left it at that.

Oh well 4 legs good...

It almost seems that we are trying to promote freedom by restricting freedom. A strange conundrum. As you say - just stick to the narrative you are supposed to have - or else.

 


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