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December 2 2020 6.35am

Feminists, Feminism, a spent-force in Politics ?

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View DanH's Profile DanH Flag SW2 20 Nov 20 4.10pm Send a Private Message to DanH Add DanH as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

thank you. And i hope that your authority to discuss weirdos' on Hol was well earned.

Are you a Feminist Dan ? did some of my opinions make you cry ? Public Sector accountants love the taxman and the Welfare State.

I believe in equality and equal opportunity so yes I am a feminist in that sense.

And I don't work in the public sector. Another thing about me you've got wrong.

I only find your views offensive in the sense that they are non-sensical and based on utter b*llocks.

 


Tw@tter:

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 20 Nov 20 4.16pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

just after the last time you were interesting and persuasive.

getting back to the main subject, and ignoring all the ignorant trolls.

What country in the World is more feminist than Sweden ?

I'm not sure you could describe Sweden as 'The most feminist country in the world' per se. You could certainly describe it as 'The most egalitarian country in the world'. There is a difference.

Jordan Peterson has made some interesting points on how egalitarianism actually drives more difference than people would initially expect. However, that does not mean egalitarianism should not be a noble aim of all societies, it absolutely should, as long as that aim is not radical equality across everything (eg. equalising biological/genetic differences, which currently, is impossible anyway).

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 20 Nov 20 4.16pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by DanH

I believe in equality and equal opportunity so yes I am a feminist in that sense.

And I don't work in the public sector. Another thing about me you've got wrong.

I only find your views offensive in the sense that they are non-sensical and based on utter b*llocks.

haha

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 20 Nov 20 4.27pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

I'm not sure you could describe Sweden as 'The most feminist country in the world' per se. You could certainly describe it as 'The most egalitarian country in the world'. There is a difference.

Jordan Peterson has made some interesting points on how egalitarianism actually drives more difference than people would initially expect. However, that does not mean egalitarianism should not be a noble aim of all societies, it absolutely should, as long as that aim is not radical equality across everything (eg. equalising biological/genetic differences, which currently, is impossible anyway).

You can't have one without the other.

Egalitarianism is the ultimate ideologically 'nice' disaster. It forms the nice bits within communism and that's why it leads to a large deliberate pile of bones.

I accept that there is a benevolent form of communism....I have met and corresponded with well meaning communists. There are good truths within it. However, there were also well meaning fascists at the beginning.

The problem comes with the reality that human nature doesn't chime with overtly authoritarian philosophies, which ultimately both of them are.

I'm not certain what the best system is....if it even can exist. However, what I am quite sure about is that meritocracy figures quite high in any successful system......and muted capitalism also seems to work well.

Not so sure about Democracy....because to paraphrase Churchill 'it's s***e'.....but then again both communism and fascism do rather get carried away with themselves don't they.

But to bring my detour back....Egalitarianism works against human nature, and hence it's always going to be a corrupt version....and all corruption leads to repression and its enforcement.

I'm a strong supporter of philosophies that recognise and work with average human nature behaviours rather than try to impose unrealistic standards upon it.


Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Nov 2020 4.31pm)

 


'I can't stand innuendo. If I see one in a script I whip it out immediately.' (Kenneth Williams)

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 20 Nov 20 4.31pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You can't have one without the other.

Egalitarianism is the ultimate ideologically 'nice' disaster. It forms the nice bits within communism and that's why it leads to a large deliberate pile of bones.

I accept that there is a benevolent form of communism....I have met and corresponded with well meaning communists. There are good truths within it. However, there were also well meaning fascists at the beginning.

The problem comes with the reality that human nature doesn't chime with overtly authoritarian philosophies, which ultimately both of them are.

I'm not certain what the best system is....if it even can exist. However, what I am quite sure about is that meritocracy figures quite high in any successful system......and muted capitalism also seems to work well.

Not so sure about Democracy....because to paraphrase Churchill 'it's s***e'.....but then again both communism and fascism do rather get carried away with themselves don't they.

For sure, but you can aim to implement a moderate version of it (eg. wage equality, reduce previously accepted norms such as workplace sexism) rather than unrealistically go for the whole hog

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 20 Nov 20 4.41pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

For sure, but you can aim to implement a moderate version of it (eg. wage equality, reduce previously accepted norms such as workplace sexism) rather than unrealistically go for the whole hog

The nature of politics means that 'moderate versions' of any philosophy rarely works out.....activists make stuff happen and 'activist centralists' are few indeed.

To focus on your examples....I think wage equality inherently works against meritocracy....though I would agree that the market overly expands wage differences due to competition.

As for 'workplace sexism'....well that covers a large area.

Many women and men have few issues being treated like women and men...it's only feminists of both genders who don't....Yet they impose their joyless ideology legally.

I don't want a world where joyless drones are given power and finger wag at every infringement of social justice they can think of.

Like I say, I prefer systems that work with average human behaviour rather than against it.


Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Nov 2020 5.03pm)

 


'I can't stand innuendo. If I see one in a script I whip it out immediately.' (Kenneth Williams)

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag Kent 20 Nov 20 4.53pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by DanH

Ah OK, I get your point. And yeah they would be better placed to comment then me.

I doubt that's an attempt at humility but either way maybe not you then but certainly anybody who has employed ample research and data to justify insight to an alternative opinion.

 


Here's to you the famous red and blue.....

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 20 Nov 20 5.07pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The nature of politics means that 'moderate versions' of any philosophy rarely works out.....activists make stuff happen and 'activist centralists' are few indeed.

To focus on your examples....I think wage equality inherently works against meritocracy.

As for 'workplace sexism'....well that covers a large area.

Many women and men have few issues being treated like women and men...it's only feminists of both genders who don't....Yet they impose their joyless ideology legally.

I don't want a world where joyless drones are given power and finger wag at every infringement of social justice they can think of.

Like I say, I prefer systems that work with average human behaviour rather than against it.


Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Nov 2020 4.42pm)

I'd say just because things rarely work out does not mean they should not be attempted... Even if they are not achieved in full there are elements that will be implemented. Otherwise it's just more of the same / don't even bother, which seems a bit defeatist.

Wage equality properly implemented (ie. pay someone the going rate for their ability regardless of gender) is just common sense. Wage equality in the form of positive discrimination, or reductive commentary without analysis such as some of the noise around the recent BBC pay equality is nonsense. That actually is just as bad as the problem it is trying to solve.

I'm not saying that extremes should be implemented, I agree on that. I also agree on 'average' behaviour to an extent, although the determination of what 'average' is, is of course subjective. Gender or not, respect, equivalence and fairness are a long way off as general principles in the workplace, even now.

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 20 Nov 20 5.26pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

I'd say just because things rarely work out does not mean they should not be attempted... Even if they are not achieved in full there are elements that will be implemented. Otherwise it's just more of the same / don't even bother, which seems a bit defeatist.

Wage equality properly implemented (ie. pay someone the going rate for their ability regardless of gender) is just common sense. Wage equality in the form of positive discrimination, or reductive commentary without analysis such as some of the noise around the recent BBC pay equality is nonsense. That actually is just as bad as the problem it is trying to solve.

I'm not saying that extremes should be implemented, I agree on that. I also agree on 'average' behaviour to an extent, although the determination of what 'average' is, is of course subjective. Gender or not, respect, equivalence and fairness are a long way off as general principles in the workplace, even now.


I think if those extremes could be avoided I can see the utility in what you say....though we might differ on equality usage of women in the workforce (as I regard motherhood as more important and something that needs much more state recognition)

The issue is that these policies once introduced don't stop at moderate....the BBC being a case in point.

What I've tended to note is that one side wins the ideological argument (which is always more left in democracies that have long periods without major war) and then the least moderate version is rolled out over time.

The same outcomes just seem to occur throughout history.....politics is driven by activists...half of which are mental and the day they are excited to jump out of bed to promote moderation is a day I haven't seen yet.

The elites of whichever era just fund whichever group of activists they think are the least threat to them....and the really smart devious ones fund both.


Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Nov 2020 5.29pm)

 


'I can't stand innuendo. If I see one in a script I whip it out immediately.' (Kenneth Williams)

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 20 Nov 20 5.51pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Originally posted by DanH


I only find your views offensive in the sense that they are non-sensical and based on utter b*llocks.

says the bloke whose only contribution to every discussion is to shout b*llocks.

you said you believe in equality and are therefore a Feminist. The two are opposites. did you not get that distinction ? Ask a clever friend to explain it to you while talking very slowly.

 


from the Etihad, Emirates, Molyneux, London Stadium, the Vitality, turf moor & Anfield to Old Trafford x 2.....or a neighbourly visit to Craven Cottage...Raptors on the Road

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View W12's Profile W12 Flag 20 Nov 20 5.55pm Send a Private Message to W12 Add W12 as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

says the bloke whose only contribution to every discussion is to shout b*llocks.

you said you believe in equality and are therefore a Feminist. The two are opposites. did you not get that distinction ? Ask a clever friend to explain it to you while talking very slowly.

f*** equality, nobody is equal

 

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 20 Nov 20 6.07pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by W12

f*** equality, nobody is equal

haha. Completely true, but also absolutely moronic considering the reasoning behind why you've posted it

You do of course realise it is more nuanced than that. Equality doesn't have to mean everyone has to be equal at everything. Granted there are plenty of hardcore activists that do think that, but that's their opinion. It will never become mainstream because it is an unattainable goal.

FFS. Some of the oversimplification on here is spectacular

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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