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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 26 Jun 22 7.56pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Anyway, in the morning, I'm off on holiday for the week, so I'll sign off here.

Take it easy lads.

Enjoy. Hope you get, wherever you are going, peacefully and without incident

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 26 Jun 22 8.47pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Anyway, in the morning, I'm off on holiday for the week, so I'll sign off here.

Take it easy lads.

Home or away? Have a good one Stirling.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 26 Jun 22 10.36pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

How is an election not an opinion poll?

Elections elect representatives who can make laws. Opinion polls just gather opinions. Totally different.

 


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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 26 Jun 22 10.45pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Elections elect representatives who can make laws. Opinion polls just gather opinions. Totally different.

An election is a poll of opinion as to who should form the Government.
Electing representatives to make decisions was one person's idea 250 years ago. Time for a change.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 26 Jun 22 10.54pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Culture is downstream from law.

Many people think their attitudes aren't influenced heavily from what they are told is desirable by the media and culture and school system, which itself takes its lead from law, which is decided by elites.

If you look at public perceptions on climate change for example, being of an age I can remember when this was regarded as 'kook' territory. Yet, both legal and media, education changes affect and change public opinion....and suddenly what was minority opinion becomes majority.

Going to a more controversial example. In sixties America there was strong support for the segregation laws. There was no majority public support for that change, yet the Democrats pushed it through and the culture changed later.

Gay 'marriage' is another example of this......It's all part of the myth of Democracy being this organic thing than some imagine it to be.

The reality is that the mainstream is an approved pathway laid down from on high, with rewards for being part of that mainstream. The majority adapt to whatever the mores are of the time coming from that.

Whatever the age and whatever its attitudes most people fitted right into that because that's normal human nature and how you get on. The counter culture is by definition outside of it and traditionally persecuted.

Now what is beneficial to society to a whole and what the motivations are of that age's particular elites are different questions entirely.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Jun 2022 3.52am)

It just isn't! It's decided by those we choose to represent us. If we don't like the law, then we collectively can act to change it. We have the power. That you feel we use that power unwisely, or not at all because too many either disagree with you, or are disinterested, then tough. That doesn't mean there is a bunch of elite people in control. It just means that the majority have decided not to interfere with the way things are. That's their choice. The power is in their hands. Whether they use it, or not.

The reality of climate change and the need to do something to stave off its worst consequences has certainly changed. It needed to. The media has played an important role in informing the people and leading them to the position where they understand the imperatives involved. That's to be welcomed, not condemned.

This has nothing to do with these mythical elites you and others want to heap all the world's troubles upon. It is to do with leadership, and the ability to convey important information.

Social change isn't new. It always takes time to get the majority on board, so again, leadership by example is a positive thing. Making strong, cogent arguments changes attitudes. It has changed mine on many issues over the years, as it has most people, even you I suspect though I doubt you will admit it

 


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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 26 Jun 22 10.59pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

An election is a poll of opinion as to who should form the Government.
Electing representatives to make decisions was one person's idea 250 years ago. Time for a change.

No it isn't.

Opinion polls have no direct consequences.

Elections do. You don't just express an opinion on who you want to represent you. You express a choice. Should your choice be in the majority, that choice gets elected. Even if the choice is not who you chose, they still represent you and make laws on your behalf.

 


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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 26 Jun 22 11.06pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

No it isn't.

Opinion polls have no direct consequences.

Elections do. You don't just express an opinion on who you want to represent you. You express a choice. Should your choice be in the majority, that choice gets elected. Even if the choice is not who you chose, they still represent you and make laws on your behalf.

And that vote is based on an opinion. An election is a poll of those opinions.
Remember the alternative vote referendum? Should MPs have decided that issue for themselves?

 

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View Wilesy01's Profile Wilesy01 Flag Bristol 26 Jun 22 11.22pm Send a Private Message to Wilesy01 Add Wilesy01 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Paul Joseph Watson's take.

[Link]

Granted this poster is on his holibobs but for avoidance of doubt he's actively posting the thoughts of someone who was caught off camera last month advocating for another holocaust.

Not sure I could give a toss what some nasty anti-Semite says about abortion.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 27 Jun 22 10.31am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

And that vote is based on an opinion. An election is a poll of those opinions.
Remember the alternative vote referendum? Should MPs have decided that issue for themselves?

As every choice you make is based on your opinion of what is best, you are arguing semantics for their own sake. An "opinion poll" has another word, apart from just opinion.

Taking a poll means collecting opinions. Holding an election means making choices.

Of course, I remember the "alternative vote referendum". The MP's did decide that matter for themselves. No referendum in the UK has the force of law. Any held are always consultative, despite what some seem to think. The MPs have the power, the right and the duty, to ignore a referendum result if they believe it to be unwise. They may decide not to use that power, but should events and circumstances so demand, they could.

You can argue for reforming the electoral system. That's another debate. What you cannot argue is what we have now is not as I have described it, and to get any reforms achieved means it must be done within the current system.

 


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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 27 Jun 22 11.19am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Well a whisper that the Supreme Court wants to look at the legality or other of gay marriage. I mean abortion is a hot potato but that one will be a complete BBQ.
It’s clear this is all religious leaning decisions and they have a go at Muslims and 73 virgins. A little bit of hypocrisy I think.

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 27 Jun 22 11.22am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It just isn't! It's decided by those we choose to represent us. If we don't like the law, then we collectively can act to change it. We have the power. That you feel we use that power unwisely, or not at all because too many either disagree with you, or are disinterested, then tough. That doesn't mean there is a bunch of elite people in control. It just means that the majority have decided not to interfere with the way things are. That's their choice. The power is in their hands. Whether they use it, or not.

The reality of climate change and the need to do something to stave off its worst consequences has certainly changed. It needed to. The media has played an important role in informing the people and leading them to the position where they understand the imperatives involved. That's to be welcomed, not condemned.

This has nothing to do with these mythical elites you and others want to heap all the world's troubles upon. It is to do with leadership, and the ability to convey important information.

Social change isn't new. It always takes time to get the majority on board, so again, leadership by example is a positive thing. Making strong, cogent arguments changes attitudes. It has changed mine on many issues over the years, as it has most people, even you I suspect though I doubt you will admit it

I'm not sure you are correct on this. A tiny number of folk pretty much run everything on a macro level. After a general election, they simply adapt to the new regime and carry on as before.

A full on communist revolution would remove most of them, but only to be replaced by another. After the NAZIs were overthrown, the top table was largely hanged but most of those who ran the show under Hitler pretty much continued on in their same roles under Adenauer.

I agree, it is not some sinister Hollywood conspiracy rubbish with men in dark suits in secret locations talking like Ming the Merciless. I suspect most of the "elite" do not know each other and are never likely to meet. But I think it impossible to argue that they do not pull the important strings on a macro level. It's just how nature operates.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 27 Jun 22 1.02pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

I'm not sure you are correct on this. A tiny number of folk pretty much run everything on a macro level. After a general election, they simply adapt to the new regime and carry on as before.

A full on communist revolution would remove most of them, but only to be replaced by another. After the NAZIs were overthrown, the top table was largely hanged but most of those who ran the show under Hitler pretty much continued on in their same roles under Adenauer.

I agree, it is not some sinister Hollywood conspiracy rubbish with men in dark suits in secret locations talking like Ming the Merciless. I suspect most of the "elite" do not know each other and are never likely to meet. But I think it impossible to argue that they do not pull the important strings on a macro level. It's just how nature operates.

If they do, and that's a big "if" which we can leave aside for now, then they do so because that's what the majority of people have chosen. If enough aren't concerned about these issues to the point that they demand change and vote for people who would deliver it, then that's their choice. The power always rests with us. We just need to make the arguments and find the leaders to convince enough others to get what we want.

 


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