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Jacey 11 May 21 12.09pm | |
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Originally posted by dreamwaverider
Certainly against the blades we got some fine moments. Even Benteke was fired up and had some great moments. Just a shame Wilf was quiet. Shame Wilf just sulks when others in the team are playing well.Cannot understand his attitude ,childish behaviour or petulance at the age of 28!!
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Canterbury Palace Whitstable 11 May 21 1.07pm | |
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Absolutely love watching him. Honestly think he's got everything, he can dribble, shoot, pass and even put in a tackle. However, I've banged on about how we should try and emulate the Leicester model in the past and, unfortunately, this would be part of it. We've missed the boat in terms of getting top value for Zaha now but with Eze we should potentially be planning to sell him next summer for a huge fee having already lined up or sourced a couple of cheaper alternatives who could hopefully emulate his success. That is probably the only way we can gradually build a team capable of climbing the table.
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold... |
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TheBigToePunt 11 May 21 3.43pm | |
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Originally posted by Canterbury Palace
Absolutely love watching him. Honestly think he's got everything, he can dribble, shoot, pass and even put in a tackle. However, I've banged on about how we should try and emulate the Leicester model in the past and, unfortunately, this would be part of it. We've missed the boat in terms of getting top value for Zaha now but with Eze we should potentially be planning to sell him next summer for a huge fee having already lined up or sourced a couple of cheaper alternatives who could hopefully emulate his success. That is probably the only way we can gradually build a team capable of climbing the table. I hear this a lot, and whilst I get that it works to pay the bills, I don't see any evidence of it being desirable otherwise. How does selling your best players make you stronger? It would work if we paid £20m for someone like Eze, got £40m for him, then bought two players as good as Eze for £20m each. But it never, ever works that way. Every transfer is a gamble. We seem to have won the gamble with the Eze deal. We got away with one in the Sorloth deal. We lost out in the Meyer deal. That's normal. The buy low and sell high plan only works if each new signing becomes significantly more valuable than they were when you bought them, but what if both the £20m players we replace Eze with are flops? That happens all the time. More to the point, I still cannot for the life of me think of an example of a team that have been made stronger by trading this way, be it smaller ones like Southampton and Burnely, or bigger ones like Lecister, Spurs or Arsenal. They all managed, at best, to stay where they were after selling their best players. Not one of them is better off.
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Canterbury Palace Whitstable 11 May 21 5.22pm | |
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
I hear this a lot, and whilst I get that it works to pay the bills, I don't see any evidence of it being desirable otherwise. How does selling your best players make you stronger? It would work if we paid £20m for someone like Eze, got £40m for him, then bought two players as good as Eze for £20m each. But it never, ever works that way. Every transfer is a gamble. We seem to have won the gamble with the Eze deal. We got away with one in the Sorloth deal. We lost out in the Meyer deal. That's normal. The buy low and sell high plan only works if each new signing becomes significantly more valuable than they were when you bought them, but what if both the £20m players we replace Eze with are flops? That happens all the time. More to the point, I still cannot for the life of me think of an example of a team that have been made stronger by trading this way, be it smaller ones like Southampton and Burnely, or bigger ones like Lecister, Spurs or Arsenal. They all managed, at best, to stay where they were after selling their best players. Not one of them is better off.
Over the last 5 years (since winning the league) they've finished 12th, 9th, 9th, 5th and this season looks to be 3rd-5th. Over those seasons their net spend was (chronologically) £23m, £34m, £17m, £14m and then, finally, £4m this season. So as they've progressed further up the league they've spent even less thanks to this model whilst still improving. Their net spend is actually only £50m more than us during that time. They've made huge profits on Maguire, Kante, Mahrez, Chilwell and Drinkwater, selling one a season, and used the money to buy Ndidi, Tielemans, Soyuncu, Fofana, Justin, Iheanacho, Maddison and Castagne. Effectively they've sold a few stars and built an entire squad. All of them could be sold for a huge profit too and I'd wager they'll sell Ndidi for a load this summer before reinvesting it themselves. Of course there have been signings that haven't worked too but the nature of their buy low, sell high strategy is that they can afford to make those mistakes and still improve.
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold... |
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TheBigToePunt 11 May 21 11.10pm | |
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Originally posted by Canterbury Palace
Over the last 5 years (since winning the league) they've finished 12th, 9th, 9th, 5th and this season looks to be 3rd-5th. Over those seasons their net spend was (chronologically) £23m, £34m, £17m, £14m and then, finally, £4m this season. So as they've progressed further up the league they've spent even less thanks to this model whilst still improving. Their net spend is actually only £50m more than us during that time. They've made huge profits on Maguire, Kante, Mahrez, Chilwell and Drinkwater, selling one a season, and used the money to buy Ndidi, Tielemans, Soyuncu, Fofana, Justin, Iheanacho, Maddison and Castagne. Effectively they've sold a few stars and built an entire squad. All of them could be sold for a huge profit too and I'd wager they'll sell Ndidi for a load this summer before reinvesting it themselves. Of course there have been signings that haven't worked too but the nature of their buy low, sell high strategy is that they can afford to make those mistakes and still improve. That's a good case you put forward but personally I'd say even Leicester are in fact an example of my point. They won the league, miraculously so, but their decision to immediately cash in on the likes of kante not only weakened their team and undermined the opportunity they had to build on their success, it also created an expectation in their players that they ought to get a big move too, and had taken Leicester as far as they could, or perhaps had to. Despite the fact that they were in the champions league, Mahrez demanded a move and sulked when it didn't happen, Drinkwater had his head turned, and they fell away so far so fast that Ranieri got the sack. Rather than act like they were here to stay, the club accepted their place in the scheme of things too readily. If you can't keep your best players when you've won the league and are in the champions league then when can you? Thereafter came three years of mid table football, which they'd have gladly taken before the title win, but which isn't much of a legacy once you've won the league and played in the champions league. I can't agree with your assessment that they got better every year - they sold their best players and, as has been the end result of that particular strategy since time began, they weren't as good as they had been. Meanwhile, the teams to whom they sold their best players climbed back above Leicester. Fair play to them for all their smart recruitment of course, particularly for signing Brendan Rodgers. He's made a huge difference, though the biggest factor in their recent high league placings is the big boys making a mess of things temporarily. If Liverpool were even half as good as they ought to be (or had a single fit centre back) and the North London clubs weren't so poorly run (Arsenal) and managed (Spurs) then Leicester would be just another team, if possibly the best of the rest. Edited by TheBigToePunt (11 May 2021 11.51pm)
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Canterbury Palace Whitstable 12 May 21 11.42am | |
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
That's a good case you put forward but personally I'd say even Leicester are in fact an example of my point. They won the league, miraculously so, but their decision to immediately cash in on the likes of kante not only weakened their team and undermined the opportunity they had to build on their success, it also created an expectation in their players that they ought to get a big move too, and had taken Leicester as far as they could, or perhaps had to. Despite the fact that they were in the champions league, Mahrez demanded a move and sulked when it didn't happen, Drinkwater had his head turned, and they fell away so far so fast that Ranieri got the sack. Rather than act like they were here to stay, the club accepted their place in the scheme of things too readily. If you can't keep your best players when you've won the league and are in the champions league then when can you? Thereafter came three years of mid table football, which they'd have gladly taken before the title win, but which isn't much of a legacy once you've won the league and played in the champions league. I can't agree with your assessment that they got better every year - they sold their best players and, as has been the end result of that particular strategy since time began, they weren't as good as they had been. Meanwhile, the teams to whom they sold their best players climbed back above Leicester. Fair play to them for all their smart recruitment of course, particularly for signing Brendan Rodgers. He's made a huge difference, though the biggest factor in their recent high league placings is the big boys making a mess of things temporarily. If Liverpool were even half as good as they ought to be (or had a single fit centre back) and the North London clubs weren't so poorly run (Arsenal) and managed (Spurs) then Leicester would be just another team, if possibly the best of the rest. Edited by TheBigToePunt (11 May 2021 11.51pm)
Clearly winning the league was a once in a lifetime thing and I don't think it was realistic that, given their resources, they'd be able to become a permanent fixture in that Champions League group after that. Ultimately the best players will always want to play at the biggest clubs, something we've seen with Zaha, and I think what Leicester have done is shrewdly realised that it is something which can be leveraged in your favour. Producing a team like they did was a freak thing but now they have a process in place which keeps them competitive at top end of the table despite their relatively small resources. Also I believe that players are probably more likely to want to go there because they know the club will sell them if the money is right and if they play well enough. In short, if you're willing to be the stepping stone for the best players you do still get to enjoy them, even if just for a couple of seasons. The bottom line is that we've done very well to produce Zaha and recruit Eze but we don't have the money to push on and and I don't see how we can do so other than, for example, selling Zaha and using the money to gamble on 2/3 cheaper replacements and then doing the same on Eze a year or two later. It's massively dependant on the abilities of your scouting team, of course, which is probably where we aren't strong enough, but I don't really see how else we improve otherwise bar a takeover.
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold... |
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Painter Croydon 12 May 21 2.16pm | |
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Originally posted by Canterbury Palace
Clearly winning the league was a once in a lifetime thing and I don't think it was realistic that, given their resources, they'd be able to become a permanent fixture in that Champions League group after that. Ultimately the best players will always want to play at the biggest clubs, something we've seen with Zaha, and I think what Leicester have done is shrewdly realised that it is something which can be leveraged in your favour. Producing a team like they did was a freak thing but now they have a process in place which keeps them competitive at top end of the table despite their relatively small resources. Also I believe that players are probably more likely to want to go there because they know the club will sell them if the money is right and if they play well enough. In short, if you're willing to be the stepping stone for the best players you do still get to enjoy them, even if just for a couple of seasons. The bottom line is that we've done very well to produce Zaha and recruit Eze but we don't have the money to push on and and I don't see how we can do so other than, for example, selling Zaha and using the money to gamble on 2/3 cheaper replacements and then doing the same on Eze a year or two later. It's massively dependant on the abilities of your scouting team, of course, which is probably where we aren't strong enough, but I don't really see how else we improve otherwise bar a takeover. Selling your best players, ultimately doesn’t end well. Blackburn won the league, then players profile went up most moved to bigger established clubs, ended up in League 1. Southampton regularly sell their best plays, nearly went down this year.
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TheBigToePunt 12 May 21 6.01pm | |
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Originally posted by Painter
Selling your best players, ultimately doesn’t end well. Blackburn won the league, then players profile went up most moved to bigger established clubs, ended up in League 1. Southampton regularly sell their best plays, nearly went down this year. Agreed. I take your points Canterbury, but as Painter says, there are far more teams who do badly out of selling their best players than do well. Even if I were to concede that Leicester have done well out of it, they would be the exception to prove the rule. Ultimately I accept it to be inevitable, if only because players want to move upwards, but I am concerned that the club shouldn't see it as a good thing, to be encouraged or aimed for. It is a necessary evil. When we sold Ian Wright, that didn't help. Didn't help at all. Edited by TheBigToePunt (12 May 2021 6.08pm)
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doombear Too far from Selhurst Park 12 May 21 6.46pm | |
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
Agreed. I take your points Canterbury, but as Painter says, there are far more teams who do badly out of selling their best players than do well. Even if I were to concede that Leicester have done well out of it, they would be the exception to prove the rule. Ultimately I accept it to be inevitable, if only because players want to move upwards, but I am concerned that the club shouldn't see it as a good thing, to be encouraged or aimed for. It is a necessary evil. When we sold Ian Wright, that didn't help. Didn't help at all. Edited by TheBigToePunt (12 May 2021 6.08pm)
Edited by doombear (12 May 2021 7.20pm)
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lefty27 ipswich 12 May 21 7.24pm | |
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There is a bit in the crazy gang documentary that sums it up. Wimbledon’s manager bumps into the chairman in the tunnel of Wembley and tells him it’s great now is a good time to sell the players, administration and relegation followed a couple of season later.
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