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October 16 2021 3.28pm

Thank you Angela Rayner

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 28 Sep 21 4.05pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The party rules allowed the party members the say, if it were just a few dissentients then they couldn't have got Corbyn elected over several 'Blairist' alternatives.

If there were a centrist majority in the Labour party that wouldn't have happened.

Now the party have changed it back and taken the deciding power away from the rank and file.....that's not 'centralist', that's elitist.

For me I don't care what the party actually is....I have no axe to grind on that....I just think that the membership should have the leader they believe in....not lobbyists or rich elites.

Then let the wider public choose, left, centre, right or whatever.

It's not the least "elitist" for the leader to try to lead and steer his Party towards a position in which they can actually do things!

It's actually a small elite of activists who are trying to control the destiny of the party against the interests of the bulk of passive, non-active, Labour leaning voters.

This is a fight which has to be won. Initially within the Labour Party, but ultimately within all parties.

If it is lost, we will all suffer.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 28 Sep 21 4.32pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

The leader once in position is free to try and steer to his heart's content.

What is in discussion is how the leader is elected.

How on earth is it a 'small band of activists'? It's the majority of party members. As stated, the general public won't vote for what they consider too extreme. So you are doom mongering or abusing as to what is actually extreme.

Once again, if there is this giant majority for your personal brand of politics then what's wrong with creating a party that represents it? Apparently loads of people would join it. Labour Blairites considered this during Corbyn's reign and actually did it....and the reality of democracy played out.

I would agree that they should be given equal access to publicity instead of corporations and social media companies deciding what's right for the public to hear....because that's why that new party failed so massively....well that and actual Blairism not being as popular as they thought.

Or perhaps it is you who are too scared to actually allow for a more democratic environment.


Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Sep 2021 4.36pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 28 Sep 21 5.10pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Proportional representation is definitely more representative and a fairer reflection of actual votes.

That said all the practical criticisms of it still stand, parties are broad churches as they are and pull in different directions anyway, but they are far more cohesive than government by proportional representation....which rarely agrees enough to get anything done.

We could have more parties that reflect their voting base more accurately and then give them equal publicity so that their ideas reach the population equally.....even though the corporate media will obviously have favourites.

I had some sympathy with Labour over how Corbyn was treated by the media (though Corbyn is fine with that being done to his opponents). The political access to the public shouldn't be controlled by corporations and restricted by social media companies.

Those that care about democracy should have never allowed the situation as now to have developed.....but in reality it's a careerist gravy train for most of them.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Sep 2021 4.02pm)

Yes, people moan about this bias and that but Corbyn (not as though I was a fan anyway) received universally horrendous coverage that in no way represented the ideas he was seeking to stand for. It was similar to Sanders in the States really, where he was seen as a threat to power structures and the status quo to the extent that those with genuine power are united. The orchestrated 'shut out' that Sanders faced in both leadership contests (first by the DNC, second time everyone dropping out to back Biden to get him over the line) was laughable really.

The PR point about parties getting things done is valid, but the other side of that is that is it always a good thing for parties to 'get things done' anyway rather than thrash out a compromise that is more modest. Education would be a good example of where parties perpetually 'stamp their mark' when they get into power and up end everything, when really it could be argued that giving the endless tinkering a miss for the most part isn't always the worst approach.

I'd say that the area most parties should be able to get some agreement on, is investing in the future (whether infrastructure, energy and so on) as these always come back to bite us if we neglect them. The problem here is that political parties rarely look beyond the short term as they don't get the plaudits. The same with the general public often too if how they perceive things. If there's not in instant return on something it draws a lot of criticism, even though in just about any modern city or society, most of what we benefit from in the day to day isn't the result of short term thinking.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 28 Sep 21 7.18pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

Yes, people moan about this bias and that but Corbyn (not as though I was a fan anyway) received universally horrendous coverage that in no way represented the ideas he was seeking to stand for. It was similar to Sanders in the States really, where he was seen as a threat to power structures and the status quo to the extent that those with genuine power are united. The orchestrated 'shut out' that Sanders faced in both leadership contests (first by the DNC, second time everyone dropping out to back Biden to get him over the line) was laughable really.

The PR point about parties getting things done is valid, but the other side of that is that is it always a good thing for parties to 'get things done' anyway rather than thrash out a compromise that is more modest. Education would be a good example of where parties perpetually 'stamp their mark' when they get into power and up end everything, when really it could be argued that giving the endless tinkering a miss for the most part isn't always the worst approach.

I'd say that the area most parties should be able to get some agreement on, is investing in the future (whether infrastructure, energy and so on) as these always come back to bite us if we neglect them. The problem here is that political parties rarely look beyond the short term as they don't get the plaudits. The same with the general public often too if how they perceive things. If there's not in instant return on something it draws a lot of criticism, even though in just about any modern city or society, most of what we benefit from in the day to day isn't the result of short term thinking.

Yep, I think those are all good points.

There is probably some version of PR that could counteract some of its negatives.

Still, PR only partly and indirectly deals with the lobbying and corporate control of politics though. I think Obama had some good ideas on this when he was first chasing the presidency......while the various types of elites will always be important and powerful they have definitely acquired much more power than in the past....effectively being king makers and for the public 'restricted choice makers'.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Sep 2021 7.57pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 28 Sep 21 11.05pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The leader once in position is free to try and steer to his heart's content.

What is in discussion is how the leader is elected.

How on earth is it a 'small band of activists'? It's the majority of party members. As stated, the general public won't vote for what they consider too extreme. So you are doom mongering or abusing as to what is actually extreme.

Once again, if there is this giant majority for your personal brand of politics then what's wrong with creating a party that represents it? Apparently loads of people would join it. Labour Blairites considered this during Corbyn's reign and actually did it....and the reality of democracy played out.

I would agree that they should be given equal access to publicity instead of corporations and social media companies deciding what's right for the public to hear....because that's why that new party failed so massively....well that and actual Blairism not being as popular as they thought.

Or perhaps it is you who are too scared to actually allow for a more democratic environment.


Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Sep 2021 4.36pm)

Actually, I didn't comment on how a leader is elected. I commented on this from you:-

"The leader of a party really should reflect it."

Which to me suggests that you believe that the leader should follow policies which are in line with the wishes of the majority of its members.

I don't. I believe they should lead their members to adopt policies which will command a majority with the electorate, because being pragmatic is the only way to achieve anything. Idealism isn't realism.

It's too easy to say the way forward is for the silent majority in the centre to form a new party, much though I would love that to happen and think it is both long overdue and badly needed.

As we know, brave souls have cast their destinies on such ventures and found themselves flung aside, thus losing some of our best political people.

With the way both major parties are funded, it is almost impossible to see how a new party could emerge in the short term. It would take a few major donors to step forward.

It could still happen. As the Brexit disaster becomes more obvious, once the pandemic is finally out of the way and our comparative position is clear, the Tory ineptitude will make them extremely unappealing.

Unless Starmer manages to recreate Blairism, which seems unlikely, Labour will remain as a fading, unelectable vision.

Only then could a credibility vacuum force a new party, or several new parties, to emerge in sufficient strength to take enough seats to force a coalition. Which would probably include the SNP and their demand for a referendum.

Too many unknowns for predictions, other than as we are in such a huge mess it's going to be a long, hard journey to get out of it.

At least Starmer is trying. He realises that unless he dumps the far left, Labour are finished. It's probably too late, and they already are.

 

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 28 Sep 21 11.54pm Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

A lot of points raised in the last 2/3 pages.

I still hope Rayner becomes leader of Labour.

There are many , many actions the current Government has taken I disagree with. I don't think Johnson is fit for purpose as PM.

That being said, the alternative looks a worse proposition to me.

I hope someone will write an alternative history where Corbyn won the last election, that would be an interesting read. McDonnell as Chancellor, Abbot as Home Secretary, Thornberry in the FO.

 


A lie will travel half way around the world before the truth has got it's shoes on.

I have simply accepted Wisbech Eagle is an all knowing and wise higher form of life.

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 29 Sep 21 12.31am Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Id rather see Diane Abbott as chancellor and Emily Thornberry as Home Secretary. Shed probably want any men she didnt like the look of locked up.

 


COYP

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 29 Sep 21 11.25am Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

Good point well made

 


A lie will travel half way around the world before the truth has got it's shoes on.

I have simply accepted Wisbech Eagle is an all knowing and wise higher form of life.

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View crystal-purley's Profile crystal-purley Flag Purley 29 Sep 21 11.41am Send a Private Message to crystal-purley Add crystal-purley as a friend

Originally posted by CPFC1965

Tories are fascist scum etc is part and parcel of what the left what to present. Four failed elections have shown how ineffective they really are, especially outside of London. The Tories gave us Austerity they cried, and the truth was that they had mismanaged the economy so badly and brought us to the brink of bankruptcy and the possibility of having to apply for an IMF loan.

40 years ago, when the North was unionised, to not vote Labour was to be branded a scab, their rhetoric rang a bell. Now we're not, we're middle class, we've escaped the pits, we still have the same ideals of a progressive labour party but what we have seen is a return to the militant 70's.

Labour lost the Red Wall because we voted to leave the EU, Corbyn and his acolytes chose to ignore us and WE voted NO. Labour treated their Northern membership with utter contempt, Rayner is nothing more than a Trade Union puppet who forgets she is a Manchester MP.

I'll continue to vote Labour in the mayoral elections, because they know how to run regional systems and are competent at that level, but Nationally/Internationally I have grave doubts.


. . . and over the ten years followinf their re-election (pre Covid) the Conservatives TREBLED the debt. The info is available on the UK Office of National Statistics.

 


Just retired and almost mastered decorating but haven't learned to garden yet

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 30 Sep 21 8.26am Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

[Link]

depends what info you read I guess

The budget deficit is more relevant

quote=crystal-purley;3666162]


. . . and over the ten years followinf their re-election (pre Covid) the Conservatives TREBLED the debt. The info is available on the UK Office of National Statistics.

Edited by HKOwen (30 Sep 2021 8.27am)

 


A lie will travel half way around the world before the truth has got it's shoes on.

I have simply accepted Wisbech Eagle is an all knowing and wise higher form of life.

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View croydon proud's Profile croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 30 Sep 21 2.37pm Send a Private Message to croydon proud Add croydon proud as a friend

Originally posted by crystal-purley


. . . and over the ten years followinf their re-election (pre Covid) the Conservatives TREBLED the debt. The info is available on the UK Office of National Statistics.

Indeed, and most of it going on PPE, which ended up off shore in their own accounts!

 

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jeeagles Flag 30 Sep 21 3.54pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Actually, I didn't comment on how a leader is elected. I commented on this from you:-

"The leader of a party really should reflect it."

Which to me suggests that you believe that the leader should follow policies which are in line with the wishes of the majority of its members.

I don't. I believe they should lead their members to adopt policies which will command a majority with the electorate, because being pragmatic is the only way to achieve anything. Idealism isn't realism.

It's too easy to say the way forward is for the silent majority in the centre to form a new party, much though I would love that to happen and think it is both long overdue and badly needed.

As we know, brave souls have cast their destinies on such ventures and found themselves flung aside, thus losing some of our best political people.

With the way both major parties are funded, it is almost impossible to see how a new party could emerge in the short term. It would take a few major donors to step forward.

It could still happen. As the Brexit disaster becomes more obvious, once the pandemic is finally out of the way and our comparative position is clear, the Tory ineptitude will make them extremely unappealing.

Unless Starmer manages to recreate Blairism, which seems unlikely, Labour will remain as a fading, unelectable vision.

Only then could a credibility vacuum force a new party, or several new parties, to emerge in sufficient strength to take enough seats to force a coalition. Which would probably include the SNP and their demand for a referendum.

Too many unknowns for predictions, other than as we are in such a huge mess it's going to be a long, hard journey to get out of it.

At least Starmer is trying. He realises that unless he dumps the far left, Labour are finished. It's probably too late, and they already are.

Labour won't win a GE without Scotland. They would be foolish to allow another referendum, as if Scotland votes to leave, Labour will never win a GE again.

I think you are more likely to see the hard-left create a new party (or several, Splitters!).

It may take a much bigger rebrand that New Labour to get them credibility though. Perhaps a total name changes as the term "Labour" no longer reflects the jobs of the majority of working class people.

 

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