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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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View Uphill's Profile Uphill Flag Bedford 16 Sep 23 12.37pm Send a Private Message to Uphill Add Uphill as a friend

Anybody who watched Katya Adler's 'Living next to Putin' on BBC1 can't be anything but moved at how the Ukraine war is affecting
residents whose countries border Russia.

As far as they are concerned Ukraine must not lose the war because their democratic freedoms could end.

We too should be very worried if that happens.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 16 Sep 23 12.46pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Uphill

Anybody who watched Katya Adler's 'Living next to Putin' on BBC1 can't be anything but moved at how the Ukraine war is affecting
residents whose countries border Russia.

As far as they are concerned Ukraine must not lose the war because their democratic freedoms could end.

We too should be very worried if that happens.

Ukraine didn't care about democracy before this war anymore than Russia did. It overthrew a democratically elected government in 2014 and Zelensky has suspended elections until after the war.

Any newspapers or political parties that don't support continuing the war are banned.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 16 Sep 23 11.27pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Ukraine didn't care about democracy before this war anymore than Russia did. It overthrew a democratically elected government in 2014 and Zelensky has suspended elections until after the war.

Any newspapers or political parties that don't support continuing the war are banned.

As a scholar of the Second World War, can you confirm that Churchill encouraged debate amongst the media on how we should prosecute the war?

Similarly Putin is keen that dissenting voices are heard.

So itís just Zelenskyy then. Who was elected in 2019 with 73% of the vote.

In 2014, against a backdrop of a massive increase in corruption and incapability, the Parliament voted to remove the President following mass protests. How did you feel about Liz Truss by the way?


Edited by Mapletree (16 Sep 2023 11.28pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 17 Sep 23 12.28am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

As a scholar of the Second World War, can you confirm that Churchill encouraged debate amongst the media on how we should prosecute the war?

Similarly Putin is keen that dissenting voices are heard.

So itís just Zelenskyy then. Who was elected in 2019 with 73% of the vote.

In 2014, against a backdrop of a massive increase in corruption and incapability, the Parliament voted to remove the President following mass protests. How did you feel about Liz Truss by the way?


Edited by Mapletree (16 Sep 2023 11.28pm)


Once again, Ukraine overthrew a democratically elected government not just a PM. Something they did with complete western approval and highly likely was funded to that tune.

The point is that this 'democracy' stuff that gets floated around about Ukraine is just fantasy compared to the hard reality of what happened and what is happening.

Liz Truss was the pick of the party that won the election....Am I comfortable with leaders elected this way....No, and I have said so...I didn't like it with Brown, Truss or Sunak. It is what it is.

Fan of Churchill are you? WW2 was carried out with very little public support for war. Which is of course one of the lies of democracy....that most of what happens is the will of the people rather than predefined routes created by elites.

Back to Ukraine: The vote in 2019 was obviously excluding the areas that Russia had taken and isn't a serious comeback to how Zelensky is viewed.

Also, let it not be forgotten that Zelensky was elected on a message of peace with Russia, so he would have gotten votes that hoped he could bring peace. Instead of negotiating with Russia Zelensky just became a puppet for whatever the Americans wanted....zero neutrality.

I couldn't give a damn what Putin wants or what Zelensky wants or what you think someone should think.

You want a war to continue until one side is defeated.

I want it to stop to save wasted lives in a conflict which condemns Ukraine to continual poverty and client control and Europe to yet another significant cost and risk of nuclear conflict amid world economic division.....All for zero gain.

That's all your neo liberals know how to do.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 12.33am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 17 Sep 23 9.18am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


Once again, Ukraine overthrew a democratically elected government not just a PM. Something they did with complete western approval and highly likely was funded to that tune.

The point is that this 'democracy' stuff that gets floated around about Ukraine is just fantasy compared to the hard reality of what happened and what is happening.

Liz Truss was the pick of the party that won the election....Am I comfortable with leaders elected this way....No, and I have said so...I didn't like it with Brown, Truss or Sunak. It is what it is.

Fan of Churchill are you? WW2 was carried out with very little public support for war. Which is of course one of the lies of democracy....that most of what happens is the will of the people rather than predefined routes created by elites.

Back to Ukraine: The vote in 2019 was obviously excluding the areas that Russia had taken and isn't a serious comeback to how Zelensky is viewed.

Also, let it not be forgotten that Zelensky was elected on a message of peace with Russia, so he would have gotten votes that hoped he could bring peace. Instead of negotiating with Russia Zelensky just became a puppet for whatever the Americans wanted....zero neutrality.

I couldn't give a damn what Putin wants or what Zelensky wants or what you think someone should think.

You want a war to continue until one side is defeated.

I want it to stop to save wasted lives in a conflict which condemns Ukraine to continual poverty and client control and Europe to yet another significant cost and risk of nuclear conflict amid world economic division.....All for zero gain.

That's all your neo liberals know how to do.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 12.33am)

As usual no facts, no sources

Try reading this. The Second World War had strong popular support

The media was of course managed

[Link]

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 17 Sep 23 9.35am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


Once again, Ukraine overthrew a democratically elected government not just a PM. Something they did with complete western approval and highly likely was funded to that tune.

The point is that this 'democracy' stuff that gets floated around about Ukraine is just fantasy compared to the hard reality of what happened and what is happening.

Liz Truss was the pick of the party that won the election....Am I comfortable with leaders elected this way....No, and I have said so...I didn't like it with Brown, Truss or Sunak. It is what it is.

Fan of Churchill are you? WW2 was carried out with very little public support for war. Which is of course one of the lies of democracy....that most of what happens is the will of the people rather than predefined routes created by elites.

Back to Ukraine: The vote in 2019 was obviously excluding the areas that Russia had taken and isn't a serious comeback to how Zelensky is viewed.

Also, let it not be forgotten that Zelensky was elected on a message of peace with Russia, so he would have gotten votes that hoped he could bring peace. Instead of negotiating with Russia Zelensky just became a puppet for whatever the Americans wanted....zero neutrality.

I couldn't give a damn what Putin wants or what Zelensky wants or what you think someone should think.

You want a war to continue until one side is defeated.

I want it to stop to save wasted lives in a conflict which condemns Ukraine to continual poverty and client control and Europe to yet another significant cost and risk of nuclear conflict amid world economic division.....All for zero gain.

That's all your neo liberals know how to do.


Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 12.33am)

Have you even considered the sums? Donbas AND Crimea voting would not have changed the outcome regardless. Just as a reminder, Russia invaded Ukraine. Ask an Estonian, Pole or Moldovan what they think

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 17 Sep 23 9.40am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

In Layman's terms, it's like grabbing all you can for yourself, whilst leaving a whole world of cr@p for someone else to clear up and pay for.
I think that summarises my experience of politics, worldwide.

You have also neatly described my children.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 17 Sep 23 2.02pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

Have you even considered the sums? Donbas AND Crimea voting would not have changed the outcome regardless. Just as a reminder, Russia invaded Ukraine. Ask an Estonian, Pole or Moldovan what they think

The point being that Zelensky didn't win an election that included the significant proportion of Ukraine that is pro Russian. There's a lot that can be said here but I'll leave it at that. Whether he would have won or not will always be a projection.

Sure, Russia invaded Ukraine....Never supported it. Just like I never supported how we got to that situation....but that's all in the thread.

As for ask an Estonian....I'm not a globalist like yourself. Ask an Estonian if they want alphabet ideology forced on them by the EU....You don't care about that do you, but suddenly their opinion on Russia matters?

Once again, democracy lies when it pretends to enact the will of the people....It enacts predefined routes decided upon by its elites. I could reel out of a series of majority public positions that have never been carried out from immigration to the death penalty.

I know little about it but from what I heard probably the only democratic system worth the name is being run by the Swiss.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 17 Sep 23 2.15pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

As usual no facts, no sources

Try reading this. The Second World War had strong popular support

The media was of course managed

[Link]

You talk about facts but then link to a book I'd have to buy.

Here's some actual poll numbers from 1938 if you wish to insist on the obvious. Then there's the reality that Churchill was voted out the first opportunity they got.

[Link]

We can agree that mainstream media is used to push whatever agenda its particular owners decide subject to their own masters. It has never been about some kind of balance or altruism.....There are probably others but Musk is the only example I know where a major media organisation is being run by someone genuinely interested in as much freedom as possible.

I respect that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 2.22pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 17 Sep 23 2.19pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

Democracy has many hats, depending on the occasion.
The Russian invasion had a useful trigger mechanism of Ukraine wanting to join NATO. And maybe later, Europe.
Look how f-cked up these organisations are when there's a crisis
and all the time populations are spoon-fed untruths by Governments and media.

 


,,

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 17 Sep 23 2.31pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

The mainstream media decides what needs to be shouted about from the rooftops and you need to be angry about and what gets barely covered and gets no megaphone treatment.

Only Musk is willing to point that truth out.

They come after anybody significant who criticises the powerful.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 2.33pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 17 Sep 23 4.05pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You talk about facts but then link to a book I'd have to buy.

Here's some actual poll numbers from 1938 if you wish to insist on the obvious. Then there's the reality that Churchill was voted out the first opportunity they got.

[Link]

We can agree that mainstream media is used to push whatever agenda its particular owners decide subject to their own masters. It has never been about some kind of balance or altruism.....There are probably others but Musk is the only example I know where a major media organisation is being run by someone genuinely interested in as much freedom as possible.

I respect that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Sep 2023 2.22pm)

You complained Ukraine has its media controlled whilst it's at war. Not before a war. During wars things change. During any major crisis for that matter. Sometimes that is what leaders have to do. In WW2 the UK was highly controlling. And during WW2 there was almost total support for the war. Especially once the atrocities became clear.

 

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