Time for a radical political reset

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Badger11 Beckenham 18 Nov 22 8.47am
PR sounds like a fair system however in practice it means that as no one has a majority they have to do deals to form a coalition which means inevitably that a small party has too much power e.g. DUP and Mrs May. The tail should not wag the dog. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 18 Nov 22 8.47am

PR sounds like a fair system however in practice it means that as no one has a majority they have to do deals to form a coalition which means inevitably that a small party has too much power e.g. DUP and Mrs May.

The tail should not wag the dog.

One more point

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Nov 22 8.48am
Originally posted by HKOwen There is no point in doing a blame game on the state of the nation. Things have been going wrong for decades. Economically and socially since Blair up to Sunak. Lack of planning, fiscal mismanagement, social deterioration have all come home to roost fuelled by unrealistic interest rates, lack of social cohesion, absurd expectations of something for nothing etc etc. I can't see an end without a major political shake up. I have come around to the view we should try PR rather than FPTP. Sadly the only place we have tried is NI where it has been an abject failure. We have allowed ourselves to get to a position where our elected class who levy tax and decide where it is spent do not seem to represent anyone from left to centre to right. Am I being too pessimistic? No you aren't and it's nice to be able to agree with you over something. As FH says in his response I think not just PR is needed but a root and branch overhaul. How we get it is the problem. The Tories need to be honest and split. I see no long term future for Labour unless they are capable of genuine reform and I don't see any real sign of that. I suspect things will need to get worse before they can get better. A couple of hung parliaments resulting in ineffective coalitions stitched together and then pulled apart, eventually leading to the adoption of PR for the next. Then the emergence of new parties, some on the right, some the left but a dominant one in the centre. I am not sure I will see it though! For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 18 Nov 22 8.48am

Originally posted by HKOwen

There is no point in doing a blame game on the state of the nation.

Things have been going wrong for decades.

Economically and socially since Blair up to Sunak.

Lack of planning, fiscal mismanagement, social deterioration have all come home to roost fuelled by unrealistic interest rates, lack of social cohesion, absurd expectations of something for nothing etc etc.

I can't see an end without a major political shake up. I have come around to the view we should try PR rather than FPTP. Sadly the only place we have tried is NI where it has been an abject failure.

We have allowed ourselves to get to a position where our elected class who levy tax and decide where it is spent do not seem to represent anyone from left to centre to right.

Am I being too pessimistic?

No you aren't and it's nice to be able to agree with you over something.

As FH says in his response I think not just PR is needed but a root and branch overhaul. How we get it is the problem. The Tories need to be honest and split. I see no long term future for Labour unless they are capable of genuine reform and I don't see any real sign of that.

I suspect things will need to get worse before they can get better. A couple of hung parliaments resulting in ineffective coalitions stitched together and then pulled apart, eventually leading to the adoption of PR for the next.

Then the emergence of new parties, some on the right, some the left but a dominant one in the centre. I am not sure I will see it though!

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Henry of Peckham Eton Mess 18 Nov 22 9.07am
Originally posted by YT And imagine 'simple' issues like who qualifies to be classed as 'Scottish', with a right to live there? Is it everyone who lives there at a particular date? Will every UK citizen have the right to declare themselves as 'Scottish'? If so, what about the people they are married or civil partnered to or partnered with, or their children or step-children; what will their status be? What about all the people around the world who claim to be 'Scottish' - anecdotally there are many times more of these than the population of Scotland itself? Edited by YT (18 Nov 2022 8.37am) Jocks hold a 'British Passport' so do the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. A friend of mine has gone to live and work in a small community near Inverness. He hasn�t been welcomed and he and his family have been singled out for unpleasant treatment by his immediate neighbours just because they are English. Clearly, a small town with very small minds but if this happens now you can probably imagine the intensity of discrimination after 'independence' if it ever happens? Denial is not just a river in Egypt
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Henry of Peckham

Eton Mess 18 Nov 22 9.07am

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Originally posted by YT

And imagine 'simple' issues like who qualifies to be classed as 'Scottish', with a right to live there? Is it everyone who lives there at a particular date? Will every UK citizen have the right to declare themselves as 'Scottish'? If so, what about the people they are married or civil partnered to or partnered with, or their children or step-children; what will their status be? What about all the people around the world who claim to be 'Scottish' - anecdotally there are many times more of these than the population of Scotland itself?

Edited by YT (18 Nov 2022 8.37am)

Jocks hold a 'British Passport' so do the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. A friend of mine has gone to live and work in a small community near Inverness. He hasn�t been welcomed and he and his family have been singled out for unpleasant treatment by his immediate neighbours just because they are English. Clearly, a small town with very small minds but if this happens now you can probably imagine the intensity of discrimination after 'independence' if it ever happens?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt

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Henry of Peckham Eton Mess 18 Nov 22 9.17am
Originally posted by YT And you inadvertently forgot to mention the Labour party's hopeless previous leaders - Brown, Milliband and Corbyn. I'm only recalling the last couple of months ... the list is extensive. Denial is not just a river in Egypt
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Henry of Peckham

Eton Mess 18 Nov 22 9.17am

Originally posted by YT

And you inadvertently forgot to mention the Labour party's hopeless previous leaders - Brown, Milliband and Corbyn.

I'm only recalling the last couple of months ... the list is extensive.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt

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mezzer Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 18 Nov 22 9.41am
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle But it isn't workable in practice unless you build a huge Trump style wall across the border #votehadrian Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.
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mezzer

Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 18 Nov 22 9.41am

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

But it isn't workable in practice unless you build a huge Trump style wall across the border

#votehadrian

Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

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YT Oxford 18 Nov 22 9.56am
Originally posted by Henry of Peckham Jocks hold a 'British Passport' so do the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. A friend of mine has gone to live and work in a small community near Inverness. He hasn�t been welcomed and he and his family have been singled out for unpleasant treatment by his immediate neighbours just because they are English. Clearly, a small town with very small minds but if this happens now you can probably imagine the intensity of discrimination after 'independence' if it ever happens? I often wonder whether the four-and-twenty virgins who came down from there and then returned 'without their virtue intact' are still going strong. Post-independence such an excursion may well need a visa. Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)
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Oxford 18 Nov 22 9.56am

Originally posted by Henry of Peckham

Jocks hold a 'British Passport' so do the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. A friend of mine has gone to live and work in a small community near Inverness. He hasn�t been welcomed and he and his family have been singled out for unpleasant treatment by his immediate neighbours just because they are English. Clearly, a small town with very small minds but if this happens now you can probably imagine the intensity of discrimination after 'independence' if it ever happens?

I often wonder whether the four-and-twenty virgins who came down from there and then returned 'without their virtue intact' are still going strong. Post-independence such an excursion may well need a visa.

Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 18 Nov 22 10.06am
Originally posted by YT I often wonder whether the four-and-twenty virgins who came down from there and then returned 'without their virtue intact' are still going strong. Post-independence such an excursion may well need a visa. You'd think they'd fit back in seamlessly. Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!
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Nicholas91

The Democratic Republic of Kent 18 Nov 22 10.06am

Originally posted by YT

I often wonder whether the four-and-twenty virgins who came down from there and then returned 'without their virtue intact' are still going strong. Post-independence such an excursion may well need a visa.

You'd think they'd fit back in seamlessly.

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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Teddy Eagle 18 Nov 22 10.20am
Originally posted by Henry of Peckham Jocks hold a 'British Passport' so do the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. A friend of mine has gone to live and work in a small community near Inverness. He hasn�t been welcomed and he and his family have been singled out for unpleasant treatment by his immediate neighbours just because they are English. Clearly, a small town with very small minds but if this happens now you can probably imagine the intensity of discrimination after 'independence' if it ever happens? I've lived in Scotland for five years and haven't had any problems, the people I've met have been friendly or at least not unfriendly - certainly more so than in London. My wife is Scottish and from round here, albeit having lived away for 30 years, so maybe that helps. On the whole the sort of English people Scots don't like are the same ones English people don't generally care for either. Or maybe it's all a ruse and they're all building a Wicker Man.
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Teddy Eagle

18 Nov 22 10.20am

Originally posted by Henry of Peckham

I've lived in Scotland for five years and haven't had any problems, the people I've met have been friendly or at least not unfriendly - certainly more so than in London. My wife is Scottish and from round here, albeit having lived away for 30 years, so maybe that helps. On the whole the sort of English people Scots don't like are the same ones English people don't generally care for either.
Or maybe it's all a ruse and they're all building a Wicker Man.

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Badger11 Beckenham 18 Nov 22 10.36am
Originally posted by Henry of Peckham Jocks hold a 'British Passport' so do the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. A friend of mine has gone to live and work in a small community near Inverness. He hasn�t been welcomed and he and his family have been singled out for unpleasant treatment by his immediate neighbours just because they are English. Clearly, a small town with very small minds but if this happens now you can probably imagine the intensity of discrimination after 'independence' if it ever happens? Of course but post independence what happens. I know very patriotic Scots who haven't lived there or maybe not even been born there. No doubt the SNP will happily give them a Scottish passport but how should we treat these people? I think independence will be a Gordian knot. Edited by Badger11 (18 Nov 2022 10.36am) One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 18 Nov 22 10.36am

Originally posted by Henry of Peckham

Jocks hold a 'British Passport' so do the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. A friend of mine has gone to live and work in a small community near Inverness. He hasn�t been welcomed and he and his family have been singled out for unpleasant treatment by his immediate neighbours just because they are English. Clearly, a small town with very small minds but if this happens now you can probably imagine the intensity of discrimination after 'independence' if it ever happens?

Of course but post independence what happens. I know very patriotic Scots who haven't lived there or maybe not even been born there. No doubt the SNP will happily give them a Scottish passport but how should we treat these people?

I think independence will be a Gordian knot.

Edited by Badger11 (18 Nov 2022 10.36am)

One more point

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Teddy Eagle 18 Nov 22 10.45am
Originally posted by Badger11 Of course but post independence what happens. I know very patriotic Scots who haven't lived there or maybe not even been born there. No doubt the SNP will happily give them a Scottish passport but how should we treat these people? I think independence will be a Gordian knot. Edited by Badger11 (18 Nov 2022 10.36am) I don't think the appetite is there for independence. Sturgeon isn't as widely popular as she seems but there really isn't any viable alternative. Most would struggle to name the leader of the Scottish Labour party and the Conservatives are silent. Ruth Davidson showed though that one person can make a big difference in perceptions.
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Teddy Eagle

18 Nov 22 10.45am

Originally posted by Badger11

I think independence will be a Gordian knot.

Edited by Badger11 (18 Nov 2022 10.36am)

I don't think the appetite is there for independence. Sturgeon isn't as widely popular as she seems but there really isn't any viable alternative. Most would struggle to name the leader of the Scottish Labour party and the Conservatives are silent. Ruth Davidson showed though that one person can make a big difference in perceptions.

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Badger11 Beckenham 18 Nov 22 11.06am
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle I don't think the appetite is there for independence. Sturgeon isn't as widely popular as she seems but there really isn't any viable alternative. Most would struggle to name the leader of the Scottish Labour party and the Conservatives are silent. Ruth Davidson showed though that one person can make a big difference in perceptions. I hope you are right. What annoys me is that the SNP has been left to argue the case for independence and has a free run as the only opposition are the Unionist parties. They need to be held to account for their appalling record of government and their ill thought out economic ideas for independence. Until that happens if you do want independence your only choice is to vote SNP no matter how bad they run the country. Ironically I suspect if they got their way then Tories and Labour would break from Westminster so post independence would be the first time the SNP were actually challenged on their own ground. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 18 Nov 22 11.06am

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

I hope you are right.

What annoys me is that the SNP has been left to argue the case for independence and has a free run as the only opposition are the Unionist parties.

They need to be held to account for their appalling record of government and their ill thought out economic ideas for independence.

Until that happens if you do want independence your only choice is to vote SNP no matter how bad they run the country.

Ironically I suspect if they got their way then Tories and Labour would break from Westminster so post independence would be the first time the SNP were actually challenged on their own ground.

One more point

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cryrst The garden of England 18 Nov 22 5.17pm
Originally posted by HKOwen There is no point in doing a blame game on the state of the nation. Things have been going wrong for decades. Economically and socially since Blair up to Sunak. Lack of planning, fiscal mismanagement, social deterioration have all come home to roost fuelled by unrealistic interest rates, lack of social cohesion, absurd expectations of something for nothing etc etc. I can't see an end without a major political shake up. I have come around to the view we should try PR rather than FPTP. Sadly the only place we have tried is NI where it has been an abject failure. We have allowed ourselves to get to a position where our elected class who levy tax and decide where it is spent do not seem to represent anyone from left to centre to right. Am I being too pessimistic? Expecting something for nothing is basically where it went wrong. Making the society we created an entitled society. I was there when interest rates hit 15%. I�ve lost a property, I�ve been layed off with 10p in the pound as wages,I�ve grovelled for money, I�ve done beans on toast for a week. Do todays youngsters really think they�re the only ones who have got it a bit rough. Ffs suck it up. Life ain�t easy, it�s not meant to be easy, it�s meant to be a challenge so give it your best shot and try harder.
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cryrst

The garden of England 18 Nov 22 5.17pm

Originally posted by HKOwen

There is no point in doing a blame game on the state of the nation.

Things have been going wrong for decades.

Economically and socially since Blair up to Sunak.

I can't see an end without a major political shake up. I have come around to the view we should try PR rather than FPTP. Sadly the only place we have tried is NI where it has been an abject failure.

We have allowed ourselves to get to a position where our elected class who levy tax and decide where it is spent do not seem to represent anyone from left to centre to right.

Am I being too pessimistic?

Expecting something for nothing is basically where it went wrong. Making the society we created an entitled society. I was there when interest rates hit 15%. I�ve lost a property, I�ve been layed off with 10p in the pound as wages,I�ve grovelled for money, I�ve done beans on toast for a week. Do todays youngsters really think they�re the only ones who have got it a bit rough. Ffs suck it up. Life ain�t easy, it�s not meant to be easy, it�s meant to be a challenge so give it your best shot and try harder.

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