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July 13 2024 10.41pm

Eighteen trillion underestmate of UK reperations .

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View TheBigToePunt's Profile TheBigToePunt Flag 31 Aug 23 2.37pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

It is a bit more nuanced than that.

Firstly, slavery in Africa was a phenomenon way before we got there; but we made it considerably worse by adding a huge market for them. Mea culpa on that one.

Secondly, there were always tribal wars in Africa. Like slavery, one in the grain of their culture. However, the motive for war altered from being the usual land grab to also people grab in order to feed that insatiable market.

Thirdly, (I know you are talking about something else) the reason there were no Mr Smith of Mr Brown on the ground is because life expectancy was less than a year, largely from malaria. Europeans learned to have others do our dirty work for us.

That said, we didn't force them to go to war, sell their own people for cash etc. African leaders exhibiting pure greed and corruption - never! And while we have white guilt about this, you can bet the Arab world cares not a jot about their much longer history in this crime.

It is indeed nuanced. That's what's wrong with some of the calls for reparations as far as I can see - that they don't recognise and address the nuance.

If the subject interests you (as it does me on occasion) I would highly recommend a podcast called 'Human Resources' - part of the Hardcore History series from Dan Carlin.

Despite being white, male, American and fairly mainstream (and at times treading very carefully indeed, therefore) he covers issues like the worldwide history of slavery before the Atlantic slave trade, the nature and definition of slavery compared to being (for instance) a wage slave or a peasant, the impact (or otherwise) of moral and religious issues over the period of the Atlantic slave trade, but most significantly of all, how much sense can be made of the whole ghastly business by seeing it in economic terms.

He (carefully) outlines how, if seen in economic terms, the 'trade' was affected by the same factors as any other. From the impact of new regulations (the Pope banning the trade of Christians as slaves) to sudden profit incentives in the cotton industry to the general increase in international trade, transit and logistical capacity, to the misfortune of the sub-Saharan African people to be the better 'product' due to their resilience against diseases that wiped out most of the original people of Cuba and other lands who might otherwise have toiled in their place, the size of the trade makes much more sense when you picture it in those terms. It was something people had always done, influenced by the usual rules of the market, hence the incompatible scale compared to any previous slavery trade or custom. None of that is a justification, but it is very important to understand it.

He also talks about the moral debate around the world at the time, the forces brought to bear that eventually ceased the trade, and all sorts of other things.

Highly recommended.

Edited by TheBigToePunt (31 Aug 2023 2.40pm)

 

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 31 Aug 23 2.55pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

the Triangle of Slave Trade was...

finished textiles to African tribes
for
Slaves to the USA cotton plantations
for
raw Cotton to Northern Mill Towns ( eg Manchester, Burnley, Accrington ) in England, for finishing

Repeat......


---------------------------------------------------

and so, do we nuke all Northern Towns that had textile factories ?

that's a lot of nukes.

 


Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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View Glazier#1's Profile Glazier#1 Flag 31 Aug 23 3.51pm Send a Private Message to Glazier#1 Add Glazier#1 as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

the Triangle of Slave Trade was...

finished textiles to African tribes
for
Slaves to the USA cotton plantations
for
raw Cotton to Northern Mill Towns ( eg Manchester, Burnley, Accrington ) in England, for finishing

Repeat......


---------------------------------------------------

and so, do we nuke all Northern Towns that had textile factories ?

that's a lot of nukes.

Nuke?!?

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 31 Aug 23 4.10pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

It is a bit more nuanced than that.

Firstly, slavery in Africa was a phenomenon way before we got there; but we made it considerably worse by adding a huge market for them. Mea culpa on that one.

Sure, but only insomuch as we were guilty as everybody else of these crimes.

Originally posted by silvertop

Secondly, there were always tribal wars in Africa. Like slavery, one in the grain of their culture. However, the motive for war altered from being the usual land grab to also people grab in order to feed that insatiable market.

I would argue that natural culture is a sub product and thus expression of genetics. Indeed, culturally, not that much has changed in large expanses of Africa.

Originally posted by silvertop

Thirdly, (I know you are talking about something else) the reason there were no Mr Smith of Mr Brown on the ground is because life expectancy was less than a year, largely from malaria. Europeans learned to have others do our dirty work for us.

Europeans did all the initial fighting, so I'd argue that the real dirty work was indeed done by us on the actual ground. However, when it comes to the merchants....Mmmmm....In a lot of cases let's just say that I think you are being extremely charitable.

Originally posted by silvertop

That said, we didn't force them to go to war, sell their own people for cash etc. African leaders exhibiting pure greed and corruption - never! And while we have white guilt about this, you can bet the Arab world cares not a jot about their much longer history in this crime.

The Arabs aren't busily engaged in piling up their own funeral pyre, as someone prophetic once said.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 01 Sep 23 1.31pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

the Triangle of Slave Trade was...

finished textiles to African tribes
for
Slaves to the USA cotton plantations
for
raw Cotton to Northern Mill Towns ( eg Manchester, Burnley, Accrington ) in England, for finishing

Repeat......


---------------------------------------------------

and so, do we nuke all Northern Towns that had textile factories ?

that's a lot of nukes.

Nobody would notice in many places. Bradford may be improved.

 


Red and Blue Army!

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 01 Sep 23 2.32pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Nobody would notice in many places. Bradford may be improved.

Bill Bryson described Bradford as a cement museum.

 

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