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April 14 2024 2.15am

Gaza Strip 'invades' Israel.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 30 Mar 24 12.18pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by NJ CLOCKTOWER

Avoiding religious quotes and texts it's better to understand the history of the region
Over the course of history, several empires governed the area of so called Palestine. Palestine as an independent nation-state that is, governed by its own elected people, and not as a colony did not exist before 1948

It is important to note that the borders and political control of the region varied during different periods and were subject to changes and conflicts. Palestine itself has never been governed by its own authority

I appreciate that you are late to the thread but the previous history of the region and its different administrations had already been gone over.

As for Palestine having never existed before as a political state, who cares what you call it? They are Islamic and the Islamic population of that region had been in the vast majority and on-going for hundreds of years, which is generation upon generation owning and living on that land.

So when...I presume you're Jewish....the Jews start migrating from mostly Europe in large numbers and then aggressively taking homes and land from those people.....I don't think it's realistic to think that's justified morally on those people....because, oh well you technically were never officially recognised or given a name.

They were never asked.

Seems kind of common that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 12.20pm)

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 30 Mar 24 12.25pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by NJ CLOCKTOWER

Yep!the Quran quote was just to state religious history, which has indeed been the cause of a lot of the problems.

Not being religious myself, I usually try to give it a wide
swerve.

However ,it it seems to annoy a lot of Muslims for some reason.I if your religious everything Is gospel so from that paragraph in the Quran Israel is for the Jews.

Also the land of Palestine has never been self-governed before 1948.

Yes, religious grievance is behind much, but that doesn't let the atheists off either....people will always find their excuses for a pile of bones comprised of their enemies.

Some religions are more peaceful than others perhaps but humans as a basic truism are tribal and whatever form that takes it will result in conflict.

That isn't some commie interpretation from me as I regard tribalism as natural law and not a flaw....rather something to be intelligently managed rather than attacked.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View NJ CLOCKTOWER's Profile NJ CLOCKTOWER Flag Tarragona 30 Mar 24 12.31pm Send a Private Message to NJ CLOCKTOWER Add NJ CLOCKTOWER as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I appreciate that you are late to the thread but the previous history of the region and its different administrations had already been gone over.

As for Palestine having never existed before as a political state, who cares what you call it? They are Islamic and the Islamic population of that region had been in the vast majority and on-going for hundreds of years, which is generation upon generation owning and living on that land.

So when...I presume you're Jewish....the Jews start migrating from mostly Europe in large numbers and then aggressively taking homes and land from those people.....I don't think it's realistic to think that's justified morally on those people....because, oh well you technically were never officially recognised or given a name.

They were never asked.

Seems kind of common that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 12.20pm)

I understand that you are expressing your viewpoint on the historical and political aspects of the Israel-Palestine conflict. It is indeed a complex and sensitive topic with multiple narratives and perspectives.

It is important to note that discussions around this issue often involve passionate opinions and differing interpretations of history. While it is true that the Islamic population has been living in the region for centuries, the situation is further complicated by historical events such as the establishment of Israel, displacement of Palestinians, and ongoing conflict.

I'm not Jewish. I'm atheist. I prefer to think for myself, because more truth and happiness comes my way.

 

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View NJ CLOCKTOWER's Profile NJ CLOCKTOWER Flag Tarragona 30 Mar 24 12.34pm Send a Private Message to NJ CLOCKTOWER Add NJ CLOCKTOWER as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yes, religious grievance is behind much, but that doesn't let the atheists off either....people will always find their excuses for a pile of bones comprised of their enemies.

Some religions are more peaceful than others perhaps but humans as a basic truism are tribal and whatever form that takes it will result in conflict.

That isn't some commie interpretation from me as I regard tribalism as natural law and not a flaw....rather something to be intelligently managed rather than attacked.

Indeed, human history is fraught with conflicts stemming from various sources, including religion, ideology, and tribalism. While religious grievances can be a factor, other motivations also drive conflicts. Managing these innate tendencies requires thoughtful consideration and efforts toward fostering understanding, empathy, and cooperation among diverse groups. It's a complex challenge with no easy solutions, but acknowledging these dynamics is a crucial step toward progress.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 30 Mar 24 12.43pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by NJ CLOCKTOWER

I understand that you are expressing your viewpoint on the historical and political aspects of the Israel-Palestine conflict. It is indeed a complex and sensitive topic with multiple narratives and perspectives.

It is important to note that discussions around this issue often involve passionate opinions and differing interpretations of history. While it is true that the Islamic population has been living in the region for centuries, the situation is further complicated by historical events such as the establishment of Israel, displacement of Palestinians, and ongoing conflict.

I'm not Jewish. I'm atheist. I prefer to think for myself, because more truth and happiness comes my way.

Being Jewish isn't just about the religious aspect, it also carries a tribal aspect as most Jews aren't that religious either or not at all. But you say you're not Jewish so fair enough....I don't say that with the view that it means you'd automatically support what's going on, as a minority of Jews don't....just that the tribal aspect would understandably kick in.....which I don't criticise, but it would provide motivation for a particular take.

While what I've written may seem that I'm strongly against Israel in reality I'm just stating what I view as a reasonable interpretation of history from an objective standpoint.

To an extent I'm steel manning the argument. I don't actually think there is a right or wrong answer....It's a tragedy whatever happens. However, it would be correct to say that, as Einstein did I disagreed with what happened in 48....and it was wholly deliberate what happened.

There is what is best for Jews in Israel...indeed, what is realistically possible for Jews in Israel and there is fairness....these are not necessarily the same thing.

But that's real life.

There is what is best for Palestinians in Israel/Palestine...indeed, what is realistically possible for Palestinians in Israel/Palestine and there is fairness....these again are not necessarily the same thing.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 12.45pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 30 Mar 24 12.58pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yes, religious grievance is behind much, but that doesn't let the atheists off either....people will always find their excuses for a pile of bones comprised of their enemies.

Some religions are more peaceful than others perhaps but humans as a basic truism are tribal and whatever form that takes it will result in conflict.

That isn't some commie interpretation from me as I regard tribalism as natural law and not a flaw....rather something to be intelligently managed rather than attacked.

Your middle paragraph is the only one that proves the point. Humans are at the top of the food chain, not by coincidence, nor by dint that we can communicate and invent and decide things. Purely by the fact we have the ability to kill with no remorse. That being to stay at the top of the food chain. If dinos had still been around we would have killed them by now to stay at the top. Only the earth would be the victor if it decided it was pissed off. Off track but pretty much how it is IMO.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 30 Mar 24 1.10pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Your middle paragraph is the only one that proves the point. Humans are at the top of the food chain, not by coincidence, nor by dint that we can communicate and invent and decide things. Purely by the fact we have the ability to kill with no remorse. That being to stay at the top of the food chain. If dinos had still been around we would have killed them by now to stay at the top. Only the earth would be the victor if it decided it was pissed off. Off track but pretty much how it is IMO.

Do animals kill with remorse?

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 30 Mar 24 1.25pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Your middle paragraph is the only one that proves the point. Humans are at the top of the food chain, not by coincidence, nor by dint that we can communicate and invent and decide things. Purely by the fact we have the ability to kill with no remorse. That being to stay at the top of the food chain. If dinos had still been around we would have killed them by now to stay at the top. Only the earth would be the victor if it decided it was pissed off. Off track but pretty much how it is IMO.

If it isn't religion it's resources or land. There will always be an excuse.

Conflict is normal, when you have a political class steeped in knowledge about the human condition you have a chance....However, what we have are social liberals and feminism.

So basically it's feck up after feck up, a competency decline and wealth robbery transfer.

Not good for the future but that's the era we happen to be living in.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 3.03pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View NJ CLOCKTOWER's Profile NJ CLOCKTOWER Flag Tarragona 31 Mar 24 6.16am Send a Private Message to NJ CLOCKTOWER Add NJ CLOCKTOWER as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Being Jewish isn't just about the religious aspect, it also carries a tribal aspect as most Jews aren't that religious either or not at all. But you say you're not Jewish so fair enough....I don't say that with the view that it means you'd automatically support what's going on, as a minority of Jews don't....just that the tribal aspect would understandably kick in.....which I don't criticise, but it would provide motivation for a particular take.

While what I've written may seem that I'm strongly against Israel in reality I'm just stating what I view as a reasonable interpretation of history from an objective standpoint.

To an extent I'm steel manning the argument. I don't actually think there is a right or wrong answer....It's a tragedy whatever happens. However, it would be correct to say that, as Einstein did I disagreed with what happened in 48....and it was wholly deliberate what happened.

There is what is best for Jews in Israel...indeed, what is realistically possible for Jews in Israel and there is fairness....these are not necessarily the same thing.

But that's real life.

There is what is best for Palestinians in Israel/Palestine...indeed, what is realistically possible for Palestinians in Israel/Palestine and there is fairness....these again are not necessarily the same thing.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 12.45pm)

It seems like you're grappling with the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, acknowledging the multiple perspectives and motivations involved. It's indeed a multifaceted issue with historical, religious, and political dimensions, and finding a resolution that balances the interests and rights of both Israelis and Palestinians is incredibly challenging. It's important to approach such discussions with empathy, understanding, and a commitment to dialogue and peaceful resolution.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 31 Mar 24 8.00am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

Do animals kill with remorse?

No but they do it for survival and are not at the top.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 31 Mar 24 9.07am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Being Jewish isn't just about the religious aspect, it also carries a tribal aspect as most Jews aren't that religious either or not at all. But you say you're not Jewish so fair enough....I don't say that with the view that it means you'd automatically support what's going on, as a minority of Jews don't....just that the tribal aspect would understandably kick in.....which I don't criticise, but it would provide motivation for a particular take.

While what I've written may seem that I'm strongly against Israel in reality I'm just stating what I view as a reasonable interpretation of history from an objective standpoint.

To an extent I'm steel manning the argument. I don't actually think there is a right or wrong answer....It's a tragedy whatever happens. However, it would be correct to say that, as Einstein did I disagreed with what happened in 48....and it was wholly deliberate what happened.

There is what is best for Jews in Israel...indeed, what is realistically possible for Jews in Israel and there is fairness....these are not necessarily the same thing.

But that's real life.

There is what is best for Palestinians in Israel/Palestine...indeed, what is realistically possible for Palestinians in Israel/Palestine and there is fairness....these again are not necessarily the same thing.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2024 12.45pm)


I have often wondered about this.

I am an atheist my father is a Christian and I was baptised. I would describe myself as an English atheist. But being Jewish even though you do not believe in the religion appears to be more important than your nationality.

As you say it does appear to be tribal.

 


One more point

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 31 Mar 24 10.24am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by NJ CLOCKTOWER

It seems like you're grappling with the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, acknowledging the multiple perspectives and motivations involved. It's indeed a multifaceted issue with historical, religious, and political dimensions, and finding a resolution that balances the interests and rights of both Israelis and Palestinians is incredibly challenging. It's important to approach such discussions with empathy, understanding, and a commitment to dialogue and peaceful resolution.

Ok...but personally I don't like language like this as it doesn't actually say anything meaningful: it's just diplomatic and that's cool but it's a politics forum.

This is where you bring the heat.

I would say it's far more important to approach discussions with honesty and realism than any of the cherries on cakes stuff like 'empathy and understanding'.

If the world had more honesty and realism then we would have far less lies and hence realistic expectations which ultimately charts the path to less disappointed and angry people.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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