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PalazioVecchio south pole 11 Nov 23 1.55pm
Huge numbers of Irish gave their lives in The Great War. Of the survivors, many returned to Ireland in 1919, saw the atrocities being done by the British Army. Thus they took up arms AGAINST their former comrades. In the case of the famous Tom Barry, he was actually fighting against his old squadron. So if a Murphy dies in Flanders, he gets one Poppy. And if he survives, but then kills British Mr Smith in West Cork....that corresponds to a different Poppy. If Smith kills Murphy in Cork...no poppy. War is always f...cked up. Like all the arms manufacturers who sold weapons to both sides in WWII....and still got paid , even after their Debtors lost. Or how the Soviets went from friend to foe in May 1945. Morality becomes very arbitrary in War. Imagine a poppy for the Pilot of the Enola Gay....had he been shot down while delivering the atom bomb onto a Japanese City. We all know that he survived the flight. And probably got a medal for killing all those innocent women & children. And still no Poppies for dead Japanese. Eze Peasy at Anfield....
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 11 Nov 23 1.55pm

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Huge numbers of Irish gave their lives in The Great War. Of the survivors, many returned to Ireland in 1919, saw the atrocities being done by the British Army.
Thus they took up arms AGAINST their former comrades. In the case of the famous Tom Barry, he was actually fighting against his old squadron.
So if a Murphy dies in Flanders, he gets one Poppy. And if he survives, but then kills British Mr Smith in West Cork....that corresponds to a different Poppy. If Smith kills Murphy in Cork...no poppy.

War is always f...cked up. Like all the arms manufacturers who sold weapons to both sides in WWII....and still got paid , even after their Debtors lost. Or how the Soviets went from friend to foe in May 1945.

Morality becomes very arbitrary in War. Imagine a poppy for the Pilot of the Enola Gay....had he been shot down while delivering the atom bomb onto a Japanese City. We all know that he survived the flight. And probably got a medal for killing all those innocent women & children. And still no Poppies for dead Japanese.

Eze Peasy at Anfield....

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 Nov 23 1.59pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio Huge numbers of Irish gave their lives in The Great War. Of the survivors, many returned to Ireland in 1919, saw the atrocities being done by the British Army. Thus they took up arms AGAINST their former comrades. In the case of the famous Tom Barry, he was actually fighting against his old squadron. So if a Murphy dies in Flanders, he gets one Poppy. And if he survives, but then kills British Mr Smith in West Cork....that corresponds to a different Poppy. If Smith kills Murphy in Cork...no poppy. War is always f...cked up. Like all the arms manufacturers who sold weapons to both sides in WWII....and still got paid , even after their Debtors lost. Or how the Soviets went from friend to foe in May 1945. Morality becomes very arbitrary in War. Imagine a poppy for the Pilot of the Enola Gay....had he been shot down while delivering the atom bomb onto a Japanese City. We all know that he survived the flight. And probably got a medal for killing all those innocent women & children. And still no Poppies for dead Japanese. Clearly, Japan and Ireland have their own memorials for whatever they want to commemorate. As do the Russians and the Germans. Edited by ASCPFC (11 Nov 2023 1.59pm) Red and Blue Army!
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Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 Nov 23 1.59pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

Clearly, Japan and Ireland have their own memorials for whatever they want to commemorate. As do the Russians and the Germans.

Edited by ASCPFC (11 Nov 2023 1.59pm)

Red and Blue Army!

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Nov 23 2.08pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio Does the Poppy also commemorate the German War dead , from two World Wars ? how do you feel about poppies next year, for Brits dying in Ukraine or Gaza next week ? Why are Wars a constant ? when 1914-18 was called 'the war to end all wars' ? and if our Ministry of Defence is off fighting in Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Ukraine.....or wherever.....who exactly are they 'Defending' ? investors ? oil men ? other ? Edited by PalazioVecchio (10 Nov 2023 8.55pm) It should do. I really do feel like the poppy should represent all who have died in wars. Clearly, there are some who will not be missed by many, and wars will be judged as just or unjust, but I suppose that ultimately, who the poppy represents is in the eye of the beholder.
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11 Nov 23 2.08pm

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Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

Does the Poppy also commemorate the German War dead , from two World Wars ?

how do you feel about poppies next year, for Brits dying in Ukraine or Gaza next week ? Why are Wars a constant ? when 1914-18 was called 'the war to end all wars' ?

and if our Ministry of Defence is off fighting in Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Ukraine.....or wherever.....who exactly are they 'Defending' ? investors ? oil men ? other ?

Edited by PalazioVecchio (10 Nov 2023 8.55pm)

It should do.

I really do feel like the poppy should represent all who have died in wars.

Clearly, there are some who will not be missed by many, and wars will be judged as just or unjust, but I suppose that ultimately, who the poppy represents is in the eye of the beholder.

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Nov 23 2.14pm
Originally posted by BrentisBack Yes I’m being serious. If said player isn’t into war or commemorating the fallen for whatever reason, then it would be virtue signalling. We don’t get to tell others that they have to give their support to any cause/remembrance/movement. Conversely, just because he doesn’t wear a poppy, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t respect the remembrance in other ways. They might just not be into wearing a poppy. I'm not suggesting that people should be obliged to wear a poppy or stand silent at eleven, and I suppose that some will wear the poppy out of duty or to make some sort of statement. I don't think that virtue signalling for the sake of it is often a factor.
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 Nov 23 2.14pm

Originally posted by BrentisBack

Yes I’m being serious. If said player isn’t into war or commemorating the fallen for whatever reason, then it would be virtue signalling. We don’t get to tell others that they have to give their support to any cause/remembrance/movement.
Conversely, just because he doesn’t wear a poppy, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t respect the remembrance in other ways. They might just not be into wearing a poppy.

I'm not suggesting that people should be obliged to wear a poppy or stand silent at eleven, and I suppose that some will wear the poppy out of duty or to make some sort of statement. I don't think that virtue signalling for the sake of it is often a factor.

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Badger11 Beckenham 11 Nov 23 2.33pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I'm going to be quite fair here and say it's far less than you might think. Considering tens of thousands (and when you include the US, hundreds of thousands) of Irish fought on the Allied side, only really maybe a hundred or so (probably less) were on the side of the Nazis. Famous ones: Lord Haw, Haw, William Joyce - buried opposite where I work. Jack Murphy who worked with Otto Skorzeny and his special forces, particularly at the Battle of the Bulge. Skorzeny was cleared of war crimes and retired and died in Ireland. His uniform was on display in the Irish war museum. Last I looked Murphy was still alive in Kinvara but I suspect he's dead now. Hitler's Irishmen is one of the books that covers it. One way Irish were recruited was after Dunkirk, the German's went around POW camps trying to recruit Irish prisoners. In some ways you wouldn't fully blame them thinking Germany had won anyway, at that time. Plus, who wants to be a prisoner of war for years? Unappealing to say the least. Also remember, average people were completely ignorant of Nazi death camps and doctrine, in the main. I wasn't referring to numbers and I agree many many Irish fought bravely on the allied side. But the organisation known as the IRA did work closely with the Nazis I assume on the basis of my enemy's enemy. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 11 Nov 23 2.33pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I'm going to be quite fair here and say it's far less than you might think. Considering tens of thousands (and when you include the US, hundreds of thousands) of Irish fought on the Allied side, only really maybe a hundred or so (probably less) were on the side of the Nazis. Famous ones: Lord Haw, Haw, William Joyce - buried opposite where I work. Jack Murphy who worked with Otto Skorzeny and his special forces, particularly at the Battle of the Bulge. Skorzeny was cleared of war crimes and retired and died in Ireland. His uniform was on display in the Irish war museum. Last I looked Murphy was still alive in Kinvara but I suspect he's dead now. Hitler's Irishmen is one of the books that covers it.
One way Irish were recruited was after Dunkirk, the German's went around POW camps trying to recruit Irish prisoners. In some ways you wouldn't fully blame them thinking Germany had won anyway, at that time. Plus, who wants to be a prisoner of war for years? Unappealing to say the least. Also remember, average people were completely ignorant of Nazi death camps and doctrine, in the main.

I wasn't referring to numbers and I agree many many Irish fought bravely on the allied side. But the organisation known as the IRA did work closely with the Nazis I assume on the basis of my enemy's enemy.

One more point

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 Nov 23 2.44pm
Originally posted by Badger11 I wasn't referring to numbers and I agree many many Irish fought bravely on the allied side. But the organisation known as the IRA did work closely with the Nazis I assume on the basis of my enemy's enemy. As far as I'm aware the Republicans did reach out to the Nazis and vice versa yet Nazi race theory and arrogance meant that little practical came of it. Added to that, the fact that many people were aware that the Roman Catholics were not treated well by the Nazis - who forced churches into deals. The Roman Catholic Church largely ignored the deals. Conversely, Mussolini was lauded in Ireland as he had strengthened the Roman Catholic Church, of course creating the Vatican State we have today. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 Nov 23 2.44pm

Originally posted by Badger11

As far as I'm aware the Republicans did reach out to the Nazis and vice versa yet Nazi race theory and arrogance meant that little practical came of it. Added to that, the fact that many people were aware that the Roman Catholics were not treated well by the Nazis - who forced churches into deals. The Roman Catholic Church largely ignored the deals. Conversely, Mussolini was lauded in Ireland as he had strengthened the Roman Catholic Church, of course creating the Vatican State we have today.

Red and Blue Army!

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