Another black man shot by police in USA

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7mins In the bush 13 Jul 16 8.55pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston Three people, not two. One is dead and thus unable to add his voice to the debate. No, two people... I didn't count the dead man, because he is dead.
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7mins

In the bush 13 Jul 16 8.55pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

Three people, not two. One is dead and thus unable to add his voice to the debate.

No, two people... I didn't count the dead man, because he is dead.

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Ray in Houston Houston 13 Jul 16 8.58pm
Originally posted by 7mins No, two people... I didn't count the dead man, because he is dead. Therein lies the rub. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 13 Jul 16 8.58pm

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Originally posted by 7mins

No, two people... I didn't count the dead man, because he is dead.

Therein lies the rub.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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7mins In the bush 13 Jul 16 9.51pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston Therein lies the rub. Explain?
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7mins

In the bush 13 Jul 16 9.51pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

Therein lies the rub.

Explain?

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Hrolf The Ganger 13 Jul 16 10.10pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston Reversing some of that would be a good start, I think. Historical ties to slavery? Ridiculous. You could say that about a whole load of institutions. This is all just rhetoric. What I want to know is how in practical terms one can change an institution that is there first and foremost to protect law abiding citizens? I know one of the accusations leveled at law enforcement is that they close ranks and cover up controversial shootings. Why do you think that is?
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Hrolf The Ganger

13 Jul 16 10.10pm

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Originally posted by Ray in Houston

Reversing some of that would be a good start, I think.

Historical ties to slavery?

Ridiculous. You could say that about a whole load of institutions.

This is all just rhetoric.

What I want to know is how in practical terms one can change an institution that is there first and foremost to protect law abiding citizens?
I know one of the accusations leveled at law enforcement is that they close ranks and cover up controversial shootings. Why do you think that is?

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nairb75 Baltimore 14 Jul 16 4.30am
i didn't read every post here but i don't need to. to help you all out: 1. this poor man was murdered unnecessarily. 2. cops aren't anywhere near always to blame. they're just regular men and women. there is a video from where i grew up - copper walks up to a routine traffic stop and gets shot at. just walked up - shot in the face. 3. there is massive racism here. 4. too many guns. nothing will change. it only gets worse. and worse, and worse. only thing that will make things change: show pictures from these shootings. i know it's terrible but if you see 5 and 6 year olds being murdered in their classrooms, or scenes from the club a few weeks ago, etc etc. show the horror. if it was my child, i would hate it but i would want change and the visuals are the only things that will change hearts and minds.
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nairb75

Baltimore 14 Jul 16 4.30am

i didn't read every post here but i don't need to. to help you all out:

1. this poor man was murdered unnecessarily.
2. cops aren't anywhere near always to blame. they're just regular men and women. there is a video from where i grew up - copper walks up to a routine traffic stop and gets shot at. just walked up - shot in the face.
3. there is massive racism here.
4. too many guns. nothing will change. it only gets worse. and worse, and worse.

only thing that will make things change: show pictures from these shootings. i know it's terrible but if you see 5 and 6 year olds being murdered in their classrooms, or scenes from the club a few weeks ago, etc etc. show the horror. if it was my child, i would hate it but i would want change and the visuals are the only things that will change hearts and minds.

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Jul 16 8.27am
I got no answer to my question so I will answer it myself. The Police need to maintain public confidence and the confidence and morale of their officers. This is for the greater good. It seems that there is always sympathy for known felons when they are killed by police in circumstances where some would claim it was unnecessary. I'm sure there are circumstances where officers shoot first and think later and this is not the kind of police we want but at the same time which of us can really judge these people? How many of us have been exposed to the dangers and pressures that they experience in the front line of protecting the public? How much sympathy do we see when police are killed in the line of duty? None of these events can be viewed in isolation,they must been seen in the context of the environment in which they happen. If the US want police to be more accountable for their actions then they must ask themselves what the potential consequences of that might be. Could the police function as an effective force with the threat of prosecution constantly looming over them and the prospect of fellow officers being forced to give damning evidence about their colleagues? You decide.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Jul 16 8.27am

I got no answer to my question so I will answer it myself.

The Police need to maintain public confidence and the confidence and morale of their officers. This is for the greater good.
It seems that there is always sympathy for known felons when they are killed by police in circumstances where some would claim it was unnecessary. I'm sure there are circumstances where officers shoot first and think later and this is not the kind of police we want but at the same time which of us can really judge these people?
How many of us have been exposed to the dangers and pressures that they experience in the front line of protecting the public?
How much sympathy do we see when police are killed in the line of duty?

None of these events can be viewed in isolation,they must been seen in the context of the environment in which they happen.
If the US want police to be more accountable for their actions then they must ask themselves what the potential consequences of that might be. Could the police function as an effective force with the threat of prosecution constantly looming over them and the prospect of fellow officers being forced to give damning evidence about their colleagues?

You decide.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jul 16 9.29am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger OK so we accept there's a problem. Then what? Maybe more than four months of training for police officers before they're allowed on duty, along with rigorous assessment, and continuous training throughout their career. In some of the states, four months of training is all it takes to become a police officer. When I was 19 and looking at joining the UK Police, it was six months of training to become a trainee officer - two further years of training to become a police officer (armed with nothing more deadly than a stick). Along with a written examination (unless you had A-levels). Getting in without a college education also meant more training. But sure, what could go wrong, with low entry standards, poor training and being equipped with firearms. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jul 16 9.29am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

OK so we accept there's a problem. Then what?

Maybe more than four months of training for police officers before they're allowed on duty, along with rigorous assessment, and continuous training throughout their career.

In some of the states, four months of training is all it takes to become a police officer. When I was 19 and looking at joining the UK Police, it was six months of training to become a trainee officer - two further years of training to become a police officer (armed with nothing more deadly than a stick). Along with a written examination (unless you had A-levels).

Getting in without a college education also meant more training.

But sure, what could go wrong, with low entry standards, poor training and being equipped with firearms.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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7mins In the bush 14 Jul 16 9.37am
Originally posted by nairb75 i didn't read every post here but i don't need to. to help you all out: 1. this poor man was murdered unnecessarily. 2. cops aren't anywhere near always to blame. they're just regular men and women. there is a video from where i grew up - copper walks up to a routine traffic stop and gets shot at. just walked up - shot in the face. 3. there is massive racism here. 4. too many guns. nothing will change. it only gets worse. and worse, and worse. only thing that will make things change: show pictures from these shootings. i know it's terrible but if you see 5 and 6 year olds being murdered in their classrooms, or scenes from the club a few weeks ago, etc etc. show the horror. if it was my child, i would hate it but i would want change and the visuals are the only things that will change hearts and minds. The "poor man" was a child rapist, while that has no influence on his death, I won't have him elevated to a position of Angel just because he died. He wasn't murdered.
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7mins

In the bush 14 Jul 16 9.37am

Originally posted by nairb75

i didn't read every post here but i don't need to. to help you all out:

The "poor man" was a child rapist, while that has no influence on his death, I won't have him elevated to a position of Angel just because he died.
He wasn't murdered.

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Jul 16 10.24am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Maybe more than four months of training for police officers before they're allowed on duty, along with rigorous assessment, and continuous training throughout their career. In some of the states, four months of training is all it takes to become a police officer. When I was 19 and looking at joining the UK Police, it was six months of training to become a trainee officer - two further years of training to become a police officer (armed with nothing more deadly than a stick). Along with a written examination (unless you had A-levels). Getting in without a college education also meant more training. But sure, what could go wrong, with low entry standards, poor training and being equipped with firearms. Yep. I think more training could only be a good thing. I do wonder though if any training could ever prepare you for the real thing. When you go out with your fellow officers as a rookie you have a massive responsibility for each others safety. I'm guessing that one of the first things you learn is don't put your buddies at risk and don't report any of their bad behaviour. I suspect that there must be official training on how to conduct yourself and then the dark arts that you learn as you go. I guess it's the difference between theory and the real world.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Jul 16 10.24am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Maybe more than four months of training for police officers before they're allowed on duty, along with rigorous assessment, and continuous training throughout their career.

Getting in without a college education also meant more training.

But sure, what could go wrong, with low entry standards, poor training and being equipped with firearms.

Yep. I think more training could only be a good thing.
I do wonder though if any training could ever prepare you for the real thing.

When you go out with your fellow officers as a rookie you have a massive responsibility for each others safety. I'm guessing that one of the first things you learn is don't put your buddies at risk and don't report any of their bad behaviour. I suspect that there must be official training on how to conduct yourself and then the dark arts that you learn as you go.
I guess it's the difference between theory and the real world.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jul 16 10.48am
Originally posted by 7mins The "poor man" was a child rapist, while that has no influence on his death, I won't have him elevated to a position of Angel just because he died. He wasn't murdered. I think there is a very good argument that it was an unlawful homicide (Murder requires conviction, which will never happen). In this country, that officer would be standing trial for murder or manslaughter, for shooting a restrained man. Doesn't matter if he was a child rapist, the police have the same duty to him as to any citizen in regards to the use of lethal force. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jul 16 10.48am

Originally posted by 7mins

The "poor man" was a child rapist, while that has no influence on his death, I won't have him elevated to a position of Angel just because he died.
He wasn't murdered.

I think there is a very good argument that it was an unlawful homicide (Murder requires conviction, which will never happen). In this country, that officer would be standing trial for murder or manslaughter, for shooting a restrained man.

Doesn't matter if he was a child rapist, the police have the same duty to him as to any citizen in regards to the use of lethal force.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jul 16 10.52am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I got no answer to my question so I will answer it myself. The Police need to maintain public confidence and the confidence and morale of their officers. This is for the greater good. It seems that there is always sympathy for known felons when they are killed by police in circumstances where some would claim it was unnecessary. I'm sure there are circumstances where officers shoot first and think later and this is not the kind of police we want but at the same time which of us can really judge these people? How many of us have been exposed to the dangers and pressures that they experience in the front line of protecting the public? How much sympathy do we see when police are killed in the line of duty? None of these events can be viewed in isolation,they must been seen in the context of the environment in which they happen. If the US want police to be more accountable for their actions then they must ask themselves what the potential consequences of that might be. Could the police function as an effective force with the threat of prosecution constantly looming over them and the prospect of fellow officers being forced to give damning evidence about their colleagues? You decide. The problem of the US, is that its almost unheard of for the Police to be held accountable for failures, and that the system of oversight and inspection is a joke, largely created to clean up political backlash. There are no national standards of training, no independent oversight bodies, there wasn't even data collected on shootings by police. Its all done on an adhoc state by state, county by county basis. There isn't even a standard police training requirements and accreditation for accadamies. And if you think US police training is poor, prison guard training is even worse. Most YTS apprentices in the UK receive more training than US police and prison officers. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jul 16 10.52am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I got no answer to my question so I will answer it myself.

You decide.

The problem of the US, is that its almost unheard of for the Police to be held accountable for failures, and that the system of oversight and inspection is a joke, largely created to clean up political backlash.

There are no national standards of training, no independent oversight bodies, there wasn't even data collected on shootings by police. Its all done on an adhoc state by state, county by county basis.

There isn't even a standard police training requirements and accreditation for accadamies.

And if you think US police training is poor, prison guard training is even worse. Most YTS apprentices in the UK receive more training than US police and prison officers.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Jul 16 11.05am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 The problem of the US, is that its almost unheard of for the Police to be held accountable for failures, and that the system of oversight and inspection is a joke, largely created to clean up political backlash. There are no national standards of training, no independent oversight bodies, there wasn't even data collected on shootings by police. Its all done on an adhoc state by state, county by county basis. There isn't even a standard police training requirements and accreditation for accadamies. And if you think US police training is poor, prison guard training is even worse. Most YTS apprentices in the UK receive more training than US police and prison officers. Is this because they are looking to recruit a certain type of candidate? Not to bright and willing to do dirty work? A long and difficult training period might put off the very people who they might reel in.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Jul 16 11.05am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

There are no national standards of training, no independent oversight bodies, there wasn't even data collected on shootings by police. Its all done on an adhoc state by state, county by county basis.

There isn't even a standard police training requirements and accreditation for accadamies.

And if you think US police training is poor, prison guard training is even worse. Most YTS apprentices in the UK receive more training than US police and prison officers.

Is this because they are looking to recruit a certain type of candidate? Not to bright and willing to do dirty work? A long and difficult training period might put off the very people who they might reel in.

Alert a moderator to this post

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