Martin McGuinness

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Kermit8 Hevon 26 Mar 17 5.47pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Why did the IRA start killing soldiers sent there to protect Catholics from Protestant violence? They were thought of 'legitimate targets' at some point. they They were sent to help enforce some kind of peace line and were welcomed by many Catholics in the beginning. But things took a dark turn when they imposed martial law on some Catholic areas and not Protestant ones and the realisation dawned that were, perhaps, not 'friend' after all but looking more like an occupation force. The ante- had been upped. You gotta feel sorry for most of those poor sods in the army back then caught up in all this mess, kids a lot of them still, and despise the political incompetence and social iniquity that led to that situation where civilians, army, police, prison officers, etc became so-called 'legitimate targets' for all manner of killer gangs from all sides. Civilians especially. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 26 Mar 17 5.47pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Why did the IRA start killing soldiers sent there to protect Catholics from Protestant violence?

They were thought of 'legitimate targets' at some point. they

They were sent to help enforce some kind of peace line and were welcomed by many Catholics in the beginning. But things took a dark turn when they imposed martial law on some Catholic areas and not Protestant ones and the realisation dawned that were, perhaps, not 'friend' after all but looking more like an occupation force. The ante- had been upped.

You gotta feel sorry for most of those poor sods in the army back then caught up in all this mess, kids a lot of them still, and despise the political incompetence and social iniquity that led to that situation where civilians, army, police, prison officers, etc became so-called 'legitimate targets' for all manner of killer gangs from all sides. Civilians especially.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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steeleye20 Croydon 26 Mar 17 5.48pm
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch Funny how some people pick and choose the bits of the Saville Inquiry that suits As has been mentioned many times on this thread, no one comes out of the troubles particularly well but let's not pretend that McGuinness does not have a substantial amount of blood on his hands Without McGuinness being charged of anything I don't think so.
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steeleye20

Croydon 26 Mar 17 5.48pm

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

Funny how some people pick and choose the bits of the Saville Inquiry that suits

As has been mentioned many times on this thread, no one comes out of the troubles particularly well but let's not pretend that McGuinness does not have a substantial amount of blood on his hands

Without McGuinness being charged of anything I don't think so.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 26 Mar 17 6.05pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 They were thought of 'legitimate targets' at some point. they They were sent to help enforce some kind of peace line and were welcomed by many Catholics in the beginning. But things took a dark turn when they imposed martial law on some Catholic areas and not Protestant ones and the realisation dawned that were, perhaps, not 'friend' after all but looking more like an occupation force. The ante- had been upped. You gotta feel sorry for most of those poor sods in the army back then caught up in all this mess, kids a lot of them still, and despise the political incompetence and social iniquity that led to that situation where civilians, army, police, prison officers, etc became so-called 'legitimate targets' for all manner of killer gangs from all sides. Civilians especially. So what do you think would have happened if we had withdrawn the nasty soldiers? What do you think the IRA's strategy would have been once the nasty soldiers had left? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 26 Mar 17 6.05pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

They were thought of 'legitimate targets' at some point. they

So what do you think would have happened if we had withdrawn the nasty soldiers?
What do you think the IRA's strategy would have been once the nasty soldiers had left?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Kermit8 Hevon 26 Mar 17 6.09pm
Originally posted by matt_himself The border campaign went on until the 60's, Michael: [Link] To many, the Border Campaign was the precursor to the Troubles. I personally think that is too simple a view and the Troubles should be viewed as a continuation of the previous century of armed struggle in Ireland. 'Officially' ended in 1962 fair enough though the campaign was pretty much exhausted by the late 50's with many participants being withdrawn. One gun battle death between late 58-62 it appears. Even Croydon can't claim that stat. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 26 Mar 17 6.09pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

The border campaign went on until the 60's, Michael:

[Link]

To many, the Border Campaign was the precursor to the Troubles. I personally think that is too simple a view and the Troubles should be viewed as a continuation of the previous century of armed struggle in Ireland.

'Officially' ended in 1962 fair enough though the campaign was pretty much exhausted by the late 50's with many participants being withdrawn. One gun battle death between late 58-62 it appears. Even Croydon can't claim that stat.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 26 Mar 17 6.12pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 So what do you think would have happened if we had withdrawn the nasty soldiers? What do you think the IRA's strategy would have been once the nasty soldiers had left? It would have been total civil war a la Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia of course. If left to their own devices The RUC/Protestant Paramilitaries v The IRA/Overseas volunteers. War would have come to the Nationalist community. No way were The Prods going to give them any civil rights unless forced. Which they were eventually. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 26 Mar 17 6.12pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

So what do you think would have happened if we had withdrawn the nasty soldiers?
What do you think the IRA's strategy would have been once the nasty soldiers had left?

It would have been total civil war a la Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia of course. If left to their own devices The RUC/Protestant Paramilitaries v The IRA/Overseas volunteers.

War would have come to the Nationalist community. No way were The Prods going to give them any civil rights unless forced. Which they were eventually.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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hedgehog50 Croydon 26 Mar 17 6.15pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 It would have been total civil war a la Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia of course. If left to their own devices The RUC/Protestant Paramilitaries v The IRA/Overseas volunteers. War would have come to the Nationalist community. No way were The Prods going to give them any civil rights unless forced. Which they were eventually. Exactly, which is precisely what McGuinness and his comrades wanted. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 26 Mar 17 6.15pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

It would have been total civil war a la Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia of course. If left to their own devices The RUC/Protestant Paramilitaries v The IRA/Overseas volunteers.

War would have come to the Nationalist community. No way were The Prods going to give them any civil rights unless forced. Which they were eventually.

Exactly, which is precisely what McGuinness and his comrades wanted.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 26 Mar 17 6.35pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Without McGuinness being charged of anything I don't think so. You don't think McGuinness who admitted to being a Brigade Commander has blood on his hands? As far as Bloody Sunday goes, You ignore the evidence given at the Savile inquiry? Or the Judges comments? You obviously know best the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 26 Mar 17 6.35pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Without McGuinness being charged of anything I don't think so.

You don't think McGuinness who admitted to being a Brigade Commander has blood on his hands?

As far as Bloody Sunday goes, You ignore the evidence given at the Savile inquiry?

Or the Judges comments?

You obviously know best

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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steeleye20 Croydon 26 Mar 17 6.44pm
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch You don't think McGuinness who admitted to being a Brigade Commander has blood on his hands? As far as Bloody Sunday goes, You ignore the evidence given at the Savile inquiry? Or the Judges comments? You obviously know best The report found that Martin McGuinness,"did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire.
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steeleye20

Croydon 26 Mar 17 6.44pm

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

You don't think McGuinness who admitted to being a Brigade Commander has blood on his hands?

As far as Bloody Sunday goes, You ignore the evidence given at the Savile inquiry?

Or the Judges comments?

You obviously know best

The report found that Martin McGuinness,"did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire.

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steeleye20 Croydon 26 Mar 17 6.48pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 The report found that Martin McGuinness,"did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire. ALSO have to laugh your post was the Saville inquiry I thought what the f**k has Jimmy Saville got to do with it
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steeleye20

Croydon 26 Mar 17 6.48pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

The report found that Martin McGuinness,"did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire.

ALSO have to laugh your post was the Saville inquiry I thought what the f**k has Jimmy Saville got to do with it

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hedgehog50 Croydon 26 Mar 17 8.39pm
Bloody Sunday was soldiers shooting rioters in the belief they were under fire themselves. There were no direct orders to shoot, there was no plan to go out that day and shoot. They basically lost control. The IRA killings orchestrated by McGuinness were planned and deliberate, targeting innocent men, women and children. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 26 Mar 17 8.39pm

Bloody Sunday was soldiers shooting rioters in the belief they were under fire themselves. There were no direct orders to shoot, there was no plan to go out that day and shoot. They basically lost control.
The IRA killings orchestrated by McGuinness were planned and deliberate, targeting innocent men, women and children.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 26 Mar 17 8.43pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 The report found that Martin McGuinness,"did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire. I don't think anyone engaged in activity that justified the army's response. What happened was awful and unecessary but several witnesses claim to have seen him with a machine gun. Enough for the judge to think it was likely. However I am sure that happens on any peaceful demo. The IRA played their hand very well, the army didn't. Not helped by the fact that it was the Paras on the streets, a great highly trained and highly aggressive fighting force, unfortunately not what was required on the day. As for blood on his hands, because he wasn't prosecuted you think that makes him in the clear? Given the reputation for IRA discipline how can you explain the self proclaimed 2ic of the Belfast Brigade not having blood on his hands? He was remember a convicted member, for carrying a bomb. What do you think that was for? Fishing for pike? Edited by Y Ddraig Goch (26 Mar 2017 8.45pm) the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 26 Mar 17 8.43pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

The report found that Martin McGuinness,"did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire.

I don't think anyone engaged in activity that justified the army's response. What happened was awful and unecessary but several witnesses claim to have seen him with a machine gun. Enough for the judge to think it was likely. However I am sure that happens on any peaceful demo.

The IRA played their hand very well, the army didn't. Not helped by the fact that it was the Paras on the streets, a great highly trained and highly aggressive fighting force, unfortunately not what was required on the day.

As for blood on his hands, because he wasn't prosecuted you think that makes him in the clear? Given the reputation for IRA discipline how can you explain the self proclaimed 2ic of the Belfast Brigade not having blood on his hands?

He was remember a convicted member, for carrying a bomb. What do you think that was for? Fishing for pike?

Edited by Y Ddraig Goch (26 Mar 2017 8.45pm)

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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legaleagle 26 Mar 17 8.48pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Bloody Sunday was soldiers shooting rioters in the belief they were under fire themselves. There were no direct orders to shoot, there was no plan to go out that day and shoot. They basically lost control. The IRA killings orchestrated by McGuinness were planned and deliberate, targeting innocent men, women and children. The Inquiry concluded (as reported by the Telegraph) that: "Despite the contrary evidence given by soldiers, we have concluded that none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers." The report added that no one threw, or threatened to throw, nail or petrol bombs at soldiers; The explanations given by soldiers were rejected, with a number said to have "knowingly put forward false accounts" Members of the so-called Official IRA fired a shot at troops, but missed their target, though crucially it was concluded it was the paratroopers who shot first on Bloody Sunday; ..The firing by soldiers of 1 Para caused the deaths of 13 people and injury to a similar number, none of whom was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury." This also applied to the 14th victim, who died later from injuries. The report added: "We found no instances where it appeared to us that soldiers either were or might have been justified in firing"; And, yes, McGuinness had blood on his hands in relation to the Troubles,as did Paisley and as do the army for Bloody Sunday. Edited by legaleagle (26 Mar 2017 8.52pm)
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legaleagle

26 Mar 17 8.48pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

The Inquiry concluded (as reported by the Telegraph) that:

"Despite the contrary evidence given by soldiers, we have concluded that none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers." The report added that no one threw, or threatened to throw, nail or petrol bombs at soldiers;

The explanations given by soldiers were rejected, with a number said to have "knowingly put forward false accounts"

Members of the so-called Official IRA fired a shot at troops, but missed their target, though crucially it was concluded it was the paratroopers who shot first on Bloody Sunday;

..The firing by soldiers of 1 Para caused the deaths of 13 people and injury to a similar number, none of whom was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury." This also applied to the 14th victim, who died later from injuries. The report added: "We found no instances where it appeared to us that soldiers either were or might have been justified in firing";

And, yes, McGuinness had blood on his hands in relation to the Troubles,as did Paisley and as do the army for Bloody Sunday.

Edited by legaleagle (26 Mar 2017 8.52pm)

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