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View Jimenez's Profile Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 13 Jul 21 3.19pm Send a Private Message to Jimenez Add Jimenez as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

There is every reason to suspect it was unreliable, if those witnesses were cherry-picked, as I strongly suspect they were.

How many came from the uprising side of the argument, and how many from the controlling ethnic group?

This was Empire. You didn't find fault with those who ran it, as that would defeat its credibility and encourage rebellion. You backed those you put in charge.

Prejudice? You are demonstrating it in spades by failing to understand the context of the event.

Your Joe Bugner moment !!

 


Pro USA & Israel

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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 13 Jul 21 3.42pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

There is every reason to suspect it was unreliable, if those witnesses were cherry-picked, as I strongly suspect they were.

How many came from the uprising side of the argument, and how many from the controlling ethnic group?

This was Empire. You didn't find fault with those who ran it, as that would defeat its credibility and encourage rebellion. You backed those you put in charge.

Prejudice? You are demonstrating it in spades by failing to understand the context of the event.

There is no reason to suppose that witnesses were cherry-picked in some way.
Most of the 62 witnesses were missionaries, government officials and settlers, 19 were African, some of those workers on the local estate.
Five women directly involved in being attacked gave evidence.
Far from not finding fault with the running of things, the Commission was highly critical of the mismanagement of the local estate and recorded that Livingstone was “unduly harsh” in his “treatment of the natives”. The Commission found that the systematic discrimination, lack of freedoms and respect were key causes of resentment among the local population.
Clearly it is yourself who does not understand the context of the event. (Although you do seem to now accept that there was an event! Some progress I guess.)

Edited by georgenorman (13 Jul 2021 4.15pm)

 

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View Wilesy01's Profile Wilesy01 Flag Bristol 13 Jul 21 3.46pm Send a Private Message to Wilesy01 Add Wilesy01 as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

if Nelson Mandela gets a statue, then we should also furnish Trafalgar Square with a statue of Gerry Adams.

just for the sake of Balance.

I see this opinion stated on these boards every now and again, that Mandela was nothing more than a violent terrorist.

Plenty of reading on the internet about the militant intentions of uMkhonto we Sizwe and it's worth noting their manifesto focused on the destruction of hard targets, rather than the killing of people.

I do think these type of actions are set apart from the IRA, who did go after soft targets.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 13 Jul 21 4.18pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wilesy01

I see this opinion stated on these boards every now and again, that Mandela was nothing more than a violent terrorist.

Plenty of reading on the internet about the militant intentions of uMkhonto we Sizwe and it's worth noting their manifesto focused on the destruction of hard targets, rather than the killing of people.

I do think these type of actions are set apart from the IRA, who did go after soft targets.

Ah I see. My terrorist is not as terrible as yours.

It's all going so well in South Africa these days.

 

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View Wilesy01's Profile Wilesy01 Flag Bristol 13 Jul 21 4.57pm Send a Private Message to Wilesy01 Add Wilesy01 as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Ah I see. My terrorist is not as terrible as yours.

It's all going so well in South Africa these days.

The difference between taking down a telephone mast to assassinating someone is quite the difference, no?

And I'm not sure what relevance it has to the current goings on in South Africa but if you wanted to start a thread on that then be my guest as it's an interesting matter.

Back to the subject matter at hand - has anyone in the South West gone to the Colston statue exhibit in the M Shed? Have heard it's pretty good.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 13 Jul 21 4.58pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

There is no reason to suppose that witnesses were cherry-picked in some way.
Most of the 62 witnesses were missionaries, government officials and settlers, 19 were African, some of those workers on the local estate.
Five women directly involved in being attacked gave evidence.
Far from not finding fault with the running of things, the Commission was highly critical of the mismanagement of the local estate and recorded that Livingstone was “unduly harsh” in his “treatment of the natives”. The Commission found that the systematic discrimination, lack of freedoms and respect were key causes of resentment among the local population.
Clearly it is yourself who does not understand the context of the event. (Although you do seem to now accept that there was an event! Some progress I guess.)

Edited by georgenorman (13 Jul 2021 4.15pm)

This is like watching the Black Knight in Monty Python & the Holy Grail except even he agreed to a draw.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 13 Jul 21 5.59pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wilesy01

The difference between taking down a telephone mast to assassinating someone is quite the difference, no?

And I'm not sure what relevance it has to the current goings on in South Africa but if you wanted to start a thread on that then be my guest as it's an interesting matter.

Back to the subject matter at hand - has anyone in the South West gone to the Colston statue exhibit in the M Shed? Have heard it's pretty good.

It might have interrupted a very important conversation.

Good how exactly? Anyone who supports tearing down statues of former slave owners is a loon as far as I'm concerned. End of.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 13 Jul 21 7.56pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wilesy01

The difference between taking down a telephone mast to assassinating someone is quite the difference, no?

And I'm not sure what relevance it has to the current goings on in South Africa but if you wanted to start a thread on that then be my guest as it's an interesting matter.

Back to the subject matter at hand - has anyone in the South West gone to the Colston statue exhibit in the M Shed? Have heard it's pretty good.

My pal is from natal and it has gone pear shaped big style. Zuma told his followers to rise up. They did and promptly let loose 100s of wild animals from the nature reserve. Then looted and burned down most factories and shops in natal city. Then burned down and looted most shops and factories in neighbouring towns. Then they burned all the trucks delivering to the towns and cities. No food, no milk,no baby milk etc.
That was the straw as now whites,mixed race and Asians have armed themselves and are shooting blacks who try to get on their land. These blacks are clearly stupid as starvation is coming their way. My friend said they are kaffas; uneducated and not exactly clever. I'm sharing this as info only. I have video which I don't want to share as its distressing for all concerned. Mainstream news isn't showing this. Get with the game wiley. This is Rhodesia and mugabe mk2. There are bodies everywhere. Who cares about them when we can have millionaire footballers thinking they have it bad!

 

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 13 Jul 21 11.42pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Originally posted by Wilesy01

I see this opinion stated on these boards every now and again, that Mandela was nothing more than a violent terrorist.

Plenty of reading on the internet about the militant intentions of uMkhonto we Sizwe and it's worth noting their manifesto focused on the destruction of hard targets, rather than the killing of people.

I do think these type of actions are set apart from the IRA, who did go after soft targets.

Murder ? i think you will find the Mandela brigade with a far bigger headcount of women, children and civilians.

And a heck of a lot more money in the bank accounts of Mandela's friends than any of the former 'Ra in Ulster. Maybe Mandela's mates can pay for the statue themselves ?

Edited by PalazioVecchio (13 Jul 2021 11.44pm)

 


Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Jul 21 9.57am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

There is no reason to suppose that witnesses were cherry-picked in some way.
Most of the 62 witnesses were missionaries, government officials and settlers, 19 were African, some of those workers on the local estate.
Five women directly involved in being attacked gave evidence.
Far from not finding fault with the running of things, the Commission was highly critical of the mismanagement of the local estate and recorded that Livingstone was “unduly harsh” in his “treatment of the natives”. The Commission found that the systematic discrimination, lack of freedoms and respect were key causes of resentment among the local population.
Clearly it is yourself who does not understand the context of the event. (Although you do seem to now accept that there was an event! Some progress I guess.)

Edited by georgenorman (13 Jul 2021 4.15pm)

It seems that the cherry-picking isn't restricted to the picking of witnesses, is it? I also read the summary to the McCracken book on this subject, which by the way confirms my original point that these things are healthy as they stimulate debate and evaluation.

Yes, 19 of the 62 witnesses were African, but none were actually involved in the uprising. They were all either dead (30 being executed) or in prison. I quote "Some of those were relatively elite Africans– ministers in the Church of Scotland, interpreters for the government, some chiefs, and people who worked on the Magomero estate". That's cherry-picking!

It also says, "The whole thing was over in a matter of days. Very few people were killed on the colonial side" and "some individuals – such as Alexander Hetherwick, the leader of the Blantyre Mission – were very dismissive, regarding it as a small-scale affair whose significance was grossly exaggerated by the colonial authorities".

There's more, but that's enough. The guy who led the enquiry was also the guy who sentenced the 30 participants to death.

The context seems to have been to exploit a relatively minor incident in order to boost the defence forces.

I have never suggested there wasn't an incident, that's obvious, but that to interpret it needs much more than a reliance on ancient accounts from one side. There is no evidence at all that Chilembwe was a murderer, which is the central accusation that you and others have made. He led a small uprising in which a few people lost their lives, but 30 were executed as a consequence. Did he himself kill? Did he order others to kill? How did the people die? It's just not known, so no judgement can be made.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Jul 21 10.02am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It seems that the cherry-picking isn't restricted to the picking of witnesses, is it? I also read the summary to the McCracken book on this subject, which by the way confirms my original point that these things are healthy as they stimulate debate and evaluation.

Yes, 19 of the 62 witnesses were African, but none were actually involved in the uprising. They were all either dead (30 being executed) or in prison. I quote "Some of those were relatively elite Africans– ministers in the Church of Scotland, interpreters for the government, some chiefs, and people who worked on the Magomero estate". That's cherry-picking!

It also says, "The whole thing was over in a matter of days. Very few people were killed on the colonial side" and "some individuals – such as Alexander Hetherwick, the leader of the Blantyre Mission – were very dismissive, regarding it as a small-scale affair whose significance was grossly exaggerated by the colonial authorities".

There's more, but that's enough. The guy who led the enquiry was also the guy who sentenced the 30 participants to death.

The context seems to have been to exploit a relatively minor incident in order to boost the defence forces.

I have never suggested there wasn't an incident, that's obvious, but that to interpret it needs much more than a reliance on ancient accounts from one side. There is no evidence at all that Chilembwe was a murderer, which is the central accusation that you and others have made. He led a small uprising in which a few people lost their lives, but 30 were executed as a consequence. Did he himself kill? Did he order others to kill? How did the people die? It's just not known, so no judgement can be made.


Never mind about all that.

Why would the vast majority of people want a statue of someone who is a symbol of anti British feeling?
This is what happens when you allow your country to fill up with people who have an axe to grind and want to establish their own power and influence.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 14 Jul 21 10.43am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


Never mind about all that.

Why would the vast majority of people want a statue of someone who is a symbol of anti British feeling?
This is what happens when you allow your country to fill up with people who have an axe to grind and want to establish their own power and influence.

TBF WE has said it was not appropriate to have the statue in the UK

 

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