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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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Midlands Eagle 24 Sep 19 11.33am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle It has nothing whatsoever to do with "the votes of 17.4 million people". It has only to do with the supremacy of Parliament over the executive. The only way for Johnson to react with him retaining any kind of credibility is to immediately resign. This was a devastating judgement expressed in the clearest possible terms. A great day for British democracy. What absolute rubbish. It has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy and if anything is a kick in the teeth for democracy

Midlands Eagle

24 Sep 19 11.33am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It has nothing whatsoever to do with "the votes of 17.4 million people". It has only to do with the supremacy of Parliament over the executive. The only way for Johnson to react with him retaining any kind of credibility is to immediately resign.

This was a devastating judgement expressed in the clearest possible terms.

A great day for British democracy.

What absolute rubbish. It has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy and if anything is a kick in the teeth for democracy

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 11.33am
Originally posted by steeleye20 Hells bells never expected that. The 'establishment' always wins is what I have been brought up with. For Charles I nobody could be found to chop his head off so they got a guy in from France to do it. Obviously we can't have Jonny Foreigner muscling in at the moment so I nominate Christan Benteke to do it. Hang on though, he'd only miss....... I did expect it! I watched quite a lot of the hearing and it seemed clear to me that the Government lawyers were uncomfortable with the position they had to defend and that those opposing them had the arguments that the Court found sympathy with. The body language and facial reactions gave the pointers. The only doubt I had was whether the Court would decide if it wasn't something that was in their remit and that as a consequence it was for Parliament itself to deal with, but the longer I watched the more convinced I became which way the tide was flowing. What I hoped for, but didn't really expect, was the unequivocal language. Lady Hale and I are definitely on the same page! Now we get the predictable moaning and groaning about the "establishment" attacking the people etc. This is the LAW. It applies to everyone. Including Prime Ministers. That's how we avoid dictators. I don't want Johnson's head in a basket on Tower Hill. Locked up in Belmarsh will do for me. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 11.33am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Hells bells never expected that.

The 'establishment' always wins is what I have been brought up with.

For Charles I nobody could be found to chop his head off so they got a guy in from France to do it.

Obviously we can't have Jonny Foreigner muscling in at the moment so I nominate Christan Benteke to do it.

Hang on though, he'd only miss.......

I did expect it!

I watched quite a lot of the hearing and it seemed clear to me that the Government lawyers were uncomfortable with the position they had to defend and that those opposing them had the arguments that the Court found sympathy with. The body language and facial reactions gave the pointers.

The only doubt I had was whether the Court would decide if it wasn't something that was in their remit and that as a consequence it was for Parliament itself to deal with, but the longer I watched the more convinced I became which way the tide was flowing.

What I hoped for, but didn't really expect, was the unequivocal language. Lady Hale and I are definitely on the same page!

Now we get the predictable moaning and groaning about the "establishment" attacking the people etc. This is the LAW. It applies to everyone. Including Prime Ministers. That's how we avoid dictators.

I don't want Johnson's head in a basket on Tower Hill. Locked up in Belmarsh will do for me.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Hrolf The Ganger 24 Sep 19 11.37am
Irrespective of the politics, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that unelected judges can tell the elected government what to do. Furthermore, if it were to lead to a revoking of article 50 then a small group of unelected men have overruled the will of the people. Totally unacceptable. How can we be sure of the impartiality or the interests of judges, especially in a matter of this size? Hopefully, none of this will alter the realisation of Brexit. What it will do is allow the Labour Party to further expose themselves for the self serving anti democratic disaster they have become. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (24 Sep 2019 11.39am)

Hrolf The Ganger

24 Sep 19 11.37am

Irrespective of the politics, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that unelected judges can tell the elected government what to do. Furthermore, if it were to lead to a revoking of article 50 then a small group of unelected men have overruled the will of the people. Totally unacceptable.
How can we be sure of the impartiality or the interests of judges, especially in a matter of this size?

Hopefully, none of this will alter the realisation of Brexit. What it will do is allow the Labour Party to further expose themselves for the self serving anti democratic disaster they have become.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (24 Sep 2019 11.39am)

DANGERCLOSE London 24 Sep 19 11.38am
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle What absolute rubbish. It has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy and if anything is a kick in the teeth for democracy Agreed

DANGERCLOSE

London 24 Sep 19 11.38am

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

What absolute rubbish. It has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy and if anything is a kick in the teeth for democracy

Agreed

Matov 24 Sep 19 11.39am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I don't want Johnson's head in a basket on Tower Hill. Locked up in Belmarsh will do for me. To be fair, Belmarsh is the designated Prison of choice for political prisoners so one and the same thing these days. And I confess to being impressed by all 11 judges. Got hand it to our rulers. Not even a pretence of debate about it. Absolutely unanimous. Nothing now to stop Parliament ordering a second referendum with the losing 'Remain' option on the ballot paper. Which has to be the best Christmas present you could ask for. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

24 Sep 19 11.39am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't want Johnson's head in a basket on Tower Hill. Locked up in Belmarsh will do for me.

To be fair, Belmarsh is the designated Prison of choice for political prisoners so one and the same thing these days.

And I confess to being impressed by all 11 judges. Got hand it to our rulers. Not even a pretence of debate about it. Absolutely unanimous.

Nothing now to stop Parliament ordering a second referendum with the losing 'Remain' option on the ballot paper. Which has to be the best Christmas present you could ask for.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 11.40am
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle What absolute rubbish. It has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy and if anything is a kick in the teeth for democracy Yet again someone who refuses to accept that our democracy is centred on Parliament, who are supreme, and not the executive who depend on them to function. I have been saying just that for months. Now the highest court in the land has unanimously said exactly the same thing. Perhaps you ought to believe them. Our system is one of Parliamentary democracy. We don't elect an executive. The executive is chosen by Parliament and can be dismissed by Parliament. The Supreme Court has just confirmed that principle For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 11.40am

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

What absolute rubbish. It has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy and if anything is a kick in the teeth for democracy

Yet again someone who refuses to accept that our democracy is centred on Parliament, who are supreme, and not the executive who depend on them to function.

I have been saying just that for months. Now the highest court in the land has unanimously said exactly the same thing. Perhaps you ought to believe them.

Our system is one of Parliamentary democracy. We don't elect an executive. The executive is chosen by Parliament and can be dismissed by Parliament. The Supreme Court has just confirmed that principle

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

DANGERCLOSE London 24 Sep 19 11.42am
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Matov 24 Sep 19 11.42am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Irrespective of the politics, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that unelected judges can tell the elected government what to do. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (24 Sep 2019 11.39am) Personally I love it. And all 11. Absolute kudos to them for the sheer unequivoable demonstration of where the true power in this country lies. 11 votes v 17.4 million. That is the only narrative we need to accept and promote. Everything reduced to that. If you think that is fine, then the status quo remains as it is. But if you don't..... "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

24 Sep 19 11.42am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Irrespective of the politics, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that unelected judges can tell the elected government what to do.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (24 Sep 2019 11.39am)

Personally I love it. And all 11. Absolute kudos to them for the sheer unequivoable demonstration of where the true power in this country lies.

11 votes v 17.4 million. That is the only narrative we need to accept and promote. Everything reduced to that.

If you think that is fine, then the status quo remains as it is. But if you don't.....

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 11.50am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Irrespective of the politics, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that unelected judges can tell the elected government what to do. Furthermore, if it were to lead to a revoking of article 50 then a small group of unelected men have overruled the will of the people. Totally unacceptable. How can we be sure of the impartiality or the interests of judges, especially in a matter of this size? Hopefully, none of this will alter the realisation of Brexit. What it will do is allow the Labour Party to further expose themselves for the self serving anti democratic disaster they have become. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (24 Sep 2019 11.39am) The Supreme Court are not telling the "elected government" what to do. They are simply applying the law and proving that no-one is above it. We don't elect a government. We elect a Parliament and the Court have re-asserted their supremacy. Which is 100% correct and very important. Thank goodness we don't elect Judges. I don't want politics infecting the justice system here. I want the laws to be made in Parliament and administered in the Courts. It will have no impact whatsoever on Brexit, only on whether the procedures to achieve a particular type of Brexit have been done legally, or not. I believe in the impartiality of all our Judges and trust everyone else does. I see no reasons whatsoever to doubt that. Their loyalty is solely to the law. The Labour Party is another issue, but a truly terrible opposition at the moment. We are very, very badly served by both major parties right now. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (24 Sep 2019 11.51am) For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 11.50am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Hopefully, none of this will alter the realisation of Brexit. What it will do is allow the Labour Party to further expose themselves for the self serving anti democratic disaster they have become.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (24 Sep 2019 11.39am)

The Supreme Court are not telling the "elected government" what to do. They are simply applying the law and proving that no-one is above it. We don't elect a government. We elect a Parliament and the Court have re-asserted their supremacy. Which is 100% correct and very important.

Thank goodness we don't elect Judges. I don't want politics infecting the justice system here. I want the laws to be made in Parliament and administered in the Courts. It will have no impact whatsoever on Brexit, only on whether the procedures to achieve a particular type of Brexit have been done legally, or not. I believe in the impartiality of all our Judges and trust everyone else does. I see no reasons whatsoever to doubt that. Their loyalty is solely to the law.

The Labour Party is another issue, but a truly terrible opposition at the moment. We are very, very badly served by both major parties right now.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (24 Sep 2019 11.51am)

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Matov 24 Sep 19 11.52am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I believe in the impartiality of all our Judges and trust everyone else does. I see no reasons whatsoever to doubt that. Their loyalty is solely to the law. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

24 Sep 19 11.52am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I believe in the impartiality of all our Judges and trust everyone else does. I see no reasons whatsoever to doubt that. Their loyalty is solely to the law.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

DANGERCLOSE London 24 Sep 19 12.11pm
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DANGERCLOSE

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 12.14pm
Originally posted by Matov Personally I love it. And all 11. Absolute kudos to them for the sheer unequivoable demonstration of where the true power in this country lies. 11 votes v 17.4 million. That is the only narrative we need to accept and promote. Everything reduced to that. If you think that is fine, then the status quo remains as it is. But if you don't..... What. So you're saying reconvening parliament means we weren't leaving. Not quite sure how that works. I always get confused by who people actually think they mean when they say things like 'where the power lies' and 'the establishment'. In this case, is it politicians? Or Judges? The way you're framing it it can't be both (even though it is). Seems to me people just change it to suit their faith. All this ruling does is expose bully boys tactics for what they were, tactics. Amber Rudd has just confirmed that the cabinet were not shown the legal advice regarding the prorogation despite reassurances they would see it before enacting it, so that says it all really. It also shows that the system still works – if you're saying 'this is where the power lies' then you'd mean Boris winning in court. He's lost, so in this case the establishment has not won. Well, to be fair, that's not true. it wins either way anyway, so your point is null and void. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 12.14pm

Originally posted by Matov

Personally I love it. And all 11. Absolute kudos to them for the sheer unequivoable demonstration of where the true power in this country lies.

11 votes v 17.4 million. That is the only narrative we need to accept and promote. Everything reduced to that.

If you think that is fine, then the status quo remains as it is. But if you don't.....

What. So you're saying reconvening parliament means we weren't leaving. Not quite sure how that works.

I always get confused by who people actually think they mean when they say things like 'where the power lies' and 'the establishment'. In this case, is it politicians? Or Judges? The way you're framing it it can't be both (even though it is). Seems to me people just change it to suit their faith.

All this ruling does is expose bully boys tactics for what they were, tactics. Amber Rudd has just confirmed that the cabinet were not shown the legal advice regarding the prorogation despite reassurances they would see it before enacting it, so that says it all really.

It also shows that the system still works – if you're saying 'this is where the power lies' then you'd mean Boris winning in court. He's lost, so in this case the establishment has not won. Well, to be fair, that's not true. it wins either way anyway, so your point is null and void.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

Matov 24 Sep 19 12.24pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC What. So you're saying reconvening parliament means we weren't leaving. Not quite sure how that works. Well yes. We are scheduled to be leaving on October 31st. Parliament decided to stop that happening. And now it will make that happen. Lets not all beat around the bush on this. Johnson prorogued Parliament because he wanted to honour his pledge to the 17.4 million people who voted Leave. The vote in June 23rd was not predecated with a requirement that it could only happen if a deal was struck with the EU. Ditto with Article 50. It is only now, at a later date, that Parliament has decided to add that proviso. Johnson has offered Parliament a General Election. It has declined. Parliament wishes to stop Brexit from happening. I know that, you know that, we all know that. And these 11 judges have handed it the right to do that. It is nice and clear cut. Their votes trump those of the 17.4 million. You should be celebrating that. That is how our system of Governance operates. Me, I want to see it destroyed. Razed to the ground. Any institution that can seek to ignore the wishes of 17.4 million votes cast in the single biggest ever exercise in British democracy is only worthy of my utter contempt, especially since it will not submit itself to a General Election despite constant pleadings from its major parties for that to happen. I despise it. I loathe those 11 judges. And I want it now consigned to the history books. It is now going to submit us to a second referendum with the losing 'Remain' option still on the paper. It is going to be an utter farce but what do they care? You are getting your wish. Enjoy the moment. Dance for joy. This is your special day. Edited by Matov (24 Sep 2019 12.25pm) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

24 Sep 19 12.24pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

What. So you're saying reconvening parliament means we weren't leaving. Not quite sure how that works.

Well yes. We are scheduled to be leaving on October 31st. Parliament decided to stop that happening. And now it will make that happen.

Lets not all beat around the bush on this. Johnson prorogued Parliament because he wanted to honour his pledge to the 17.4 million people who voted Leave.

The vote in June 23rd was not predecated with a requirement that it could only happen if a deal was struck with the EU. Ditto with Article 50. It is only now, at a later date, that Parliament has decided to add that proviso.

Johnson has offered Parliament a General Election. It has declined.

Parliament wishes to stop Brexit from happening. I know that, you know that, we all know that. And these 11 judges have handed it the right to do that.

It is nice and clear cut. Their votes trump those of the 17.4 million. You should be celebrating that. That is how our system of Governance operates.

Me, I want to see it destroyed. Razed to the ground. Any institution that can seek to ignore the wishes of 17.4 million votes cast in the single biggest ever exercise in British democracy is only worthy of my utter contempt, especially since it will not submit itself to a General Election despite constant pleadings from its major parties for that to happen.

I despise it. I loathe those 11 judges. And I want it now consigned to the history books.

It is now going to submit us to a second referendum with the losing 'Remain' option still on the paper. It is going to be an utter farce but what do they care?

You are getting your wish. Enjoy the moment. Dance for joy. This is your special day.

Edited by Matov (24 Sep 2019 12.25pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Hrolf The Ganger 24 Sep 19 12.38pm
The establishment are doing exactly what many of us suspected they would do from the start. They are determined to make sure Brexit won't happen.

Hrolf The Ganger

24 Sep 19 12.38pm

The establishment are doing exactly what many of us suspected they would do from the start.

They are determined to make sure Brexit won't happen.

taylors lovechild 24 Sep 19 12.42pm
If the judges had ruled it legal then future governments would have a precedent in law for them to prorogue parliament when it suited their ends (be it Conservative or Labour). Boris wanted to muzzle parliament because it wasn't suiting his agenda. Surely it is clear that is not how a democracy should work?

taylors lovechild

24 Sep 19 12.42pm

If the judges had ruled it legal then future governments would have a precedent in law for them to prorogue parliament when it suited their ends (be it Conservative or Labour). Boris wanted to muzzle parliament because it wasn't suiting his agenda. Surely it is clear that is not how a democracy should work?

W12 24 Sep 19 12.42pm
Originally posted by Matov Well yes. We are scheduled to be leaving on October 31st. Parliament decided to stop that happening. And now it will make that happen. Lets not all beat around the bush on this. Johnson prorogued Parliament because he wanted to honour his pledge to the 17.4 million people who voted Leave. The vote in June 23rd was not predecated with a requirement that it could only happen if a deal was struck with the EU. Ditto with Article 50. It is only now, at a later date, that Parliament has decided to add that proviso. Johnson has offered Parliament a General Election. It has declined. Parliament wishes to stop Brexit from happening. I know that, you know that, we all know that. And these 11 judges have handed it the right to do that. It is nice and clear cut. Their votes trump those of the 17.4 million. You should be celebrating that. That is how our system of Governance operates. Me, I want to see it destroyed. Razed to the ground. Any institution that can seek to ignore the wishes of 17.4 million votes cast in the single biggest ever exercise in British democracy is only worthy of my utter contempt, especially since it will not submit itself to a General Election despite constant pleadings from its major parties for that to happen. I despise it. I loathe those 11 judges. And I want it now consigned to the history books. It is now going to submit us to a second referendum with the losing 'Remain' option still on the paper. It is going to be an utter farce but what do they care? You are getting your wish. Enjoy the moment. Dance for joy. This is your special day. Edited by Matov (24 Sep 2019 12.25pm) Well said Sir, you have managed to communicate almost exactly what's on my mind at the moment. The potential and even likely repercussions of all this are too scary to even consider.

W12 24 Sep 19 12.42pm