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April 29 2024 2.18pm

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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View dynamicdick's Profile dynamicdick Flag Dormansland 09 Jan 19 9.30pm Send a Private Message to dynamicdick Add dynamicdick as a friend

Originally posted by steve1984

Which is entirely understandable. How else should you think?

But our democracy doesn't belong exclusively to the 17m. It's also my democracy and that of the other 16m that has been trashed. Trashed by a Prime Minister who called a referendum in what he believed was the interests of his party. Lied about his intentions to honour the result. Failed to prepare in anyway for a leave win and then walked.

There are plenty that need to be strung up but the first must be David William Donald Cameron. He has held us all in utter contempt.

Agree about Cameron and alongside him one Dominic Grieve who has done everything possible to overturn democracy with Bercow very close behind.

Ok lets put the emotions to one side and focus on the facts that firstly the referendum was in the Conservatives manifesto and many believe that this was a major reason why they got into power and with a fair majority. He called it on this basis and could do little else.

He does a Chamberlain and goes cap in hand to the biggest protectionist organisation on the planet coming back with a deal that he believes will win. No one at this point... the EU him and God knows how many others believed that 'Leave' would succeed. The 'Champions of Industry' who have now come out of the woodwork threatening jobs and moving offices weren't that vocal when it really mattered ..in the 6 week debating period nor were the likes of Red Riding Hood in disguise Dominic Grieve (do you get the feeling that I don't particularly like him.) He and his accomplices have since done everything possible to undermine Theresa May's negotiating position to the detriment of this Country and Democracy.

The EU don't need to do anything as Grieve and his mates are doing it for them.

May was on a loser as soon as she took the job and whatever course of action she tries to take its wrong.

The Government should have had total control of negotiations and everyone backing their position and with it fulfilling the vote of the 17.5 million. Far too much interference of Parliament and of course the people driving it. Where were the whips when you needed them!

I voted leave and would still today. Finally, a message for Mr Corbyn.....don't forget that many of your supporters voted the same, so beware what you try and pull under the pretext of gaining power.

 


Bring back Brolin

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steve1984 09 Jan 19 10.41pm

Originally posted by Jimenez

In other words Matov, Stevie Boy thinks you & I and 17M others are Dimwits.

I've known Mat for the best part of 20 years, unlike you he's not even remotely dim.

 

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steve1984 09 Jan 19 10.43pm

Originally posted by dynamicdick

May was on a loser as soon as she took the job and whatever course of action she tries to take its wrong.

When she took the job she had a working majority.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 09 Jan 19 11.46pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by steve1984

When she took the job she had a working majority.

Indeed she did. But even so, the question remains why 'No Deal' was not the default option from the start? This is what I have struggled with from the very beginning. What logic is there is starting any negotiating if you do make it obvious from the get-go that you are not only willing to stand up and walk away but that you have the cab waiting in the street for you to do so?

It is why I puzzle about this current farce. This deal is simply not fit for purpose. No sovereign nation can hand over the right to a foreign power to veto its future which is what that back-stop option is and she must have been painfully aware that the DUP, let alone the people like Rees Mogg and co, would never back it in a million years.

The most fragile, and based on nothing more than a desperate hope that has no basis in any logical analysis, possible outcome (and I am embarrassed ot even put it in writing )is that this is all a cunning ruse, based on a reality that if a General Election can be fought on the basis of a Tory Party supporting 'No Deal' against a Labour Party effectively committed to BINO or even keeping us in, can be won with a working majority given Labours own very real Brexit fault lines.

Otherwise it is an act of reckless stupidity, wasting Parliamentary time on debating what is the worst of all possible worlds with no hope of passing.

However, if we are still in the EU on April 1st, then all bets are off. And it scares me. It really does. I have zero issues in admitting that because even now, the self-same people who told us that Leave never stood a chance or that Trump's chances of beating Hillary were non-existent are the same ones writing off the possibility of serious civil unrest if Brexit is betrayed.

It is as though we have an entire class of both politicians and the wider commentariat, and their attendant followers and fanboys, incapable of accepting that they have no idea of what is going on outside of their progressive echo chambers despite glaring evidence to the contrary along with plenty of examples of where their expertise has proved wrong. That their think tanks and polling experts still have credibility.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Jimenez's Profile Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 09 Jan 19 11.48pm Send a Private Message to Jimenez Add Jimenez as a friend

Originally posted by steve1984

I've known Mat for the best part of 20 years, unlike you he's not even remotely dim.

Ah the old personal slurs. How original? You don't know me so please don't cast aspersions. You have an issue with me you can always PM me.

 


Pro USA & Israel

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Pussay Patrol Flag 10 Jan 19 6.23am

Originally posted by Matov

Indeed she did. But even so, the question remains why 'No Deal' was not the default option from the start? This is what I have struggled with from the very beginning. What logic is there is starting any negotiating if you do make it obvious from the get-go that you are not only willing to stand up and walk away but that you have the cab waiting in the street for you to do so?


so you go into a negotiation to do a deal telling them that you don't want a deal? Hmm

You're sound like you're in the John Redwood camp of just leave under a cloud

Maybe you don't care how damaging this would be for our business and economy?, the throw your toys out and walk off option doesn't help or suit anyone

 


Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 10 Jan 19 7.30am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Pussay Patrol

so you go into a negotiation to do a deal telling them that you don't want a deal? Hmm


No. You go into the talks stressing how you are interested in achieving one but that you will walk out if you feel that one cannot be reached, and have put plans in place for that eventuality. So as an example if I were to want to buy a car, I would go into the showroom with a brochure of a rival in my hand. That is just plain common sense otherwise it is not a negotiation but merely a surrender.


Edited by Matov (10 Jan 2019 7.31am)

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 10 Jan 19 7.58am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Pussay Patrol

so you go into a negotiation to do a deal telling them that you don't want a deal? Hmm

We shouldn't have gone into the negotiations saying that we wanted to do a deal as we should have said right at the outset that we were leaving the EU and if they wanted to do a deal to soften the blow for them we would consider it as long as it was in the UK's best interests

 

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Pussay Patrol Flag 10 Jan 19 8.55am

Originally posted by Matov


No. You go into the talks stressing how you are interested in achieving one but that you will walk out if you feel that one cannot be reached, and have put plans in place for that eventuality. So as an example if I were to want to buy a car, I would go into the showroom with a brochure of a rival in my hand. That is just plain common sense otherwise it is not a negotiation but merely a surrender.


Edited by Matov (10 Jan 2019 7.31am)

Sorry but that's not a correct analogy. Someone buying a car has freedom and choice as a customer, if he does not buy it does not have any consequence.

A better one would be a salesman who has to negotiate a new contract for his company. If he went back to his boss and said he couldn't agree anything and as a result there was uncertainty about the business relationship I don't think his boss would be very pleased.

We don't hold all the cards, politicians have lied to you

 


Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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View dynamicdick's Profile dynamicdick Flag Dormansland 10 Jan 19 9.08am Send a Private Message to dynamicdick Add dynamicdick as a friend

Originally posted by Pussay Patrol

so you go into a negotiation to do a deal telling them that you don't want a deal? Hmm

You're sound like you're in the John Redwood camp of just leave under a cloud

Maybe you don't care how damaging this would be for our business and economy?, the throw your toys out and walk off option doesn't help or suit anyone

Do you play poker?

 


Bring back Brolin

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View dynamicdick's Profile dynamicdick Flag Dormansland 10 Jan 19 9.11am Send a Private Message to dynamicdick Add dynamicdick as a friend

Originally posted by Pussay Patrol

Sorry but that's not a correct analogy. Someone buying a car has freedom and choice as a customer, if he does not buy it does not have any consequence.

A better one would be a salesman who has to negotiate a new contract for his company. If he went back to his boss and said he couldn't agree anything and as a result there was uncertainty about the business relationship I don't think his boss would be very pleased.

We don't hold all the cards, politicians have lied to you

GBP 39bn?

 


Bring back Brolin

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Pussay Patrol Flag 10 Jan 19 9.32am

Originally posted by dynamicdick

Do you play poker?

Not sure what you are getting at, do you win poker by walking away?

 


Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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