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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 cryrst  The garden of England 14 Oct 19 11.12pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Of course it isn't. You make a prediction on known facts. You make a guess without them. Nope ,its a forecast,a prophecy.
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Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 14 Oct 19 11.15pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
I see. So it’s not refusing to allow an election when it’s in our best interest. Nothing to do with thinking they might not win. The two things go hand in hand don't they? Unless you have control you cannot do what you believe to be in the country's best interests. Being a martyr won't help anyone.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 14 Oct 19 11.20pm |
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Originally posted by cryrst
Nope ,its a forecast,a prophecy. I think you need a dictionary. Forecasts aren't guesses. I had to do loads of them in my business career and they are based on knowledge, past experience, trends and market intelligence. You don't just stick your nose in the air and your fingers in your ears and guess.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 14 Oct 19 11.32pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
We've had minority governments before this is nothing new until Parliament call a GE the government must carry on and to do that it has to have an agenda. And on the subject of GE the opposition had the opportunity to call a GE which would have been held before 31 Oct thus negating the no deal Brexit if they won. They chose not to do so because certain MPS will lose their seats because they defected and others were not sure their party would win. It's pathetic that they now cry foul when they could have stopped this. The reason was a lack of trust in Johnson who has resolutely said he would bring us out on Oct 31st come what may. So the priority had to be getting the Benn Act passed to stop that before the prorogation took effect. Parliament didn't know it was then going to be declared unlawful, but the fact that it was gives support to their reasons to distrust him. If you examine the timelines you will see that there really hasn't been a clear opportunity to hold a GE and be sure of stopping a "no deal". Remember there have now been two prorogations, a Queen's speech and all the subsequent debates which take up the time. Alongside that we have a divided approach from the various members opposing a "no deal" who need to find a common cause to coalesce around. That now seems to finally be happening but when people are also playing their own political games it isn't easy. I don't let anyone off the hook yet. If they fail to protect us from the nightmare of the present government then there will be some harsh words from me towards whoever is responsible.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| dynamicdick Dormansland 15 Oct 19 12.15am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
That is worthy of winning the Trump prize for "Conspiracy Theory of the Year". It's the kind of mixing of half facts woven with misunderstandings that circulate all the time on the internet these days, especially on Trump supporting sites in the USA. I won't even bother to dissect it and try to point out where it's wrong. It's all wrong. Fortunately Parliament doesn't listen to this kind of thing! This has nothing whatsoever to do withTrump and this is no conspiracy theory. God knows why you are bringing him into it. Your mutterings are akin to David Ike and after reading volumes of what you have written on here I am really beginning to wonder. So let’s get back onto the specifics of your reply to me. Half facts woven with misunderstandings and it’s all wrong plus you won’t bother to dissect my comments, wow that is constructive debating. Everything I have written is as the opening letters states IMO (In My Opinion) and the fact that you have merely broad brushed your reply without going into details merely demonstrates that you aren’t interested in a proper debate. You are clearly a person who has bought into the propaganda of the conspirators believing that blocking Brexit and with it the democratic decision of the 17.4 million is acceptable. It isn’t and thank God we have Boris who is leading the charge to deliver that mandate and by the way the choice was In or Out and nothing about negotiating a deal. And one last thing, if a deal cannot be achieved then the case will harden amongst Leavers for a No Deal as clearly any deal would simply make us a bigger puppet of the EU than we are now. This will then open the door to Mr Farage and as a blocker if you think you see Boris as a problem you ain’t seen nothing yet.
Bring back Brolin |
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Teddy Eagle  15 Oct 19 1.03am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The two things go hand in hand don't they? Unless you have control you cannot do what you believe to be in the country's best interests. Being a martyr won't help anyone. Not necessarily. I have a problem with Corbyn and his acolytes being opposed to everything to do with the EEC / EU for decades now deciding it’s the best thing for the country to delay leaving. That’s as moral a stance as offering to write off student debt. Tony Benn was true to his principles; these people are nothing but chancers.
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| dannyboy1978 15 Oct 19 3.09am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I think you need a dictionary. Forecasts aren't guesses. I had to do loads of them in my business career and they are based on knowledge, past experience, trends and market intelligence. You don't just stick your nose in the air and your fingers in your ears and guess. You agree the IMF, previous chancellors, bank of England have got things wrong in the past? We can add to that the cost of cross rail, Heathrow, Wembley, HS2, all budgeted wrong. Kenneth Clarke even wanted us to go in the euro, why would I listne to him! Blair lied SO the population took their experience not to Edited by dannyboy1978 (15 Oct 2019 3.17am) Edited by dannyboy1978 (15 Oct 2019 3.19am)
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| cryrst The garden of England 15 Oct 19 6.03am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I think you need a dictionary. Forecasts aren't guesses. I had to do loads of them in my business career and they are based on knowledge, past experience, trends and market intelligence. You don't just stick your nose in the air and your fingers in your ears and guess.
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 becky over the moon 15 Oct 19 6.45am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Depends who you are and who has managed to get control of the party machine. Which is one of the things I believe we need to address in the future to ensure our MPs can always vote according to the conscience and not be looking over their shoulder. I want to see all votes in the House to be secret and kept secret. If all votes in the House were secret, and not recorded for public access, how would any of us know what stance our MP took on matters of importance to us, so we could assess at the next election whether or not he is serving what we see as our best interests or what he/she regards as best for their constituents? How would we then know who to vote for?
A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers |
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| W12 15 Oct 19 7.12am | |
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Originally posted by becky
If all votes in the House were secret, and not recorded for public access, how would any of us know what stance our MP took on matters of importance to us, so we could assess at the next election whether or not he is serving what we see as our best interests or what he/she regards as best for their constituents? How would we then know who to vote for? We could stay in the EU. That would ensure that all decision making is kept really secret.
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| Eaglecoops CR3 15 Oct 19 7.25am |
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Originally posted by dynamicdick
This has nothing whatsoever to do withTrump and this is no conspiracy theory. God knows why you are bringing him into it. Your mutterings are akin to David Ike and after reading volumes of what you have written on here I am really beginning to wonder. So let’s get back onto the specifics of your reply to me. Half facts woven with misunderstandings and it’s all wrong plus you won’t bother to dissect my comments, wow that is constructive debating. Everything I have written is as the opening letters states IMO (In My Opinion) and the fact that you have merely broad brushed your reply without going into details merely demonstrates that you aren’t interested in a proper debate. You are clearly a person who has bought into the propaganda of the conspirators believing that blocking Brexit and with it the democratic decision of the 17.4 million is acceptable. It isn’t and thank God we have Boris who is leading the charge to deliver that mandate and by the way the choice was In or Out and nothing about negotiating a deal. And one last thing, if a deal cannot be achieved then the case will harden amongst Leavers for a No Deal as clearly any deal would simply make us a bigger puppet of the EU than we are now. This will then open the door to Mr Farage and as a blocker if you think you see Boris as a problem you ain’t seen nothing yet. Well said. The architects of a poor or no deal are actually the remainers within the government. If they had all got behind a deal from the start and allowed us to hardball the negotiations with Brussels this would all be done and dusted now and we would be well into a new era.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 15 Oct 19 7.44am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The reason was a lack of trust in Johnson who has resolutely said he would bring us out on Oct 31st come what may. So the priority had to be getting the Benn Act passed to stop that before the prorogation took effect. Parliament didn't know it was then going to be declared unlawful, but the fact that it was gives support to their reasons to distrust him. If you examine the timelines you will see that there really hasn't been a clear opportunity to hold a GE and be sure of stopping a "no deal". Remember there have now been two prorogations, a Queen's speech and all the subsequent debates which take up the time. Alongside that we have a divided approach from the various members opposing a "no deal" who need to find a common cause to coalesce around. That now seems to finally be happening but when people are also playing their own political games it isn't easy. I don't let anyone off the hook yet. If they fail to protect us from the nightmare of the present government then there will be some harsh words from me towards whoever is responsible. When Parliament returned most pundits expected Corbyn to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. If Corbyn had done that and defeated the government he and Johnson could have agreed a GE timetable so the Benn act would not have been required. I noticed your condemnation of the Queens's speech is an almost word for word repeat of what Corbyn said yesterday. I think we know where your politics lie. Edited by Badger11 (15 Oct 2019 7.45am)
One more point |
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| YT Oxford 15 Oct 19 8.13am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Can you really not see the difference? Queen's speeches are held after a GE and set out the planned legislative programme. They aren't held before one when there is a minority government pressing for a GE and with no hope of actually achieving any of their announced programme in the current Parliament. This was blatant opportunism and an insult both to the Queen, to Parliament and to our democratic system. Wrong, I'm afraid. The Queen's Speech is held at the start of each session of parliament. The current queen has delivered around 60 of them.
Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes) |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 15 Oct 19 8.59am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
When Parliament returned most pundits expected Corbyn to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. If Corbyn had done that and defeated the government he and Johnson could have agreed a GE timetable so the Benn act would not have been required. I noticed your condemnation of the Queens's speech is an almost word for word repeat of what Corbyn said yesterday. I think we know where your politics lie. Edited by Badger11 (15 Oct 2019 7.45am) The Queen's speech yesterday was an election broadcast for the tory party, they do not have a majority in the HOC and cannot enact that program. If they were to win the next election, then HRHs speech would be relevant, otherwise its just make-believe nonsense. Like the whole spectacle yesterday IMO. Corbyn was exactly right, he didn't say it but I read a poll yesterday with 52% wanting the end of the Monarchy. For once I can see where they are coming from.
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| dannyboy1978 15 Oct 19 9.10am |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
The Queen's speech yesterday was an election broadcast for the tory party, they do not have a majority in the HOC and cannot enact that program. If they were to win the next election, then HRHs speech would be relevant, otherwise its just make-believe nonsense. Like the whole spectacle yesterday IMO. Corbyn was exactly right, he didn't say it but I read a poll yesterday with 52% wanting the end of the Monarchy. For once I can see where they are coming from. That's ok then because 48% is more important and gets it's own way!
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| cryrst The garden of England 15 Oct 19 9.51am |
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Originally posted by dannyboy1978
That's ok then because 48% is more important and gets it's own way! Whoosh
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 9.59am |
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Originally posted by dynamicdick
This has nothing whatsoever to do withTrump and this is no conspiracy theory. God knows why you are bringing him into it. Your mutterings are akin to David Ike and after reading volumes of what you have written on here I am really beginning to wonder. So let’s get back onto the specifics of your reply to me. Half facts woven with misunderstandings and it’s all wrong plus you won’t bother to dissect my comments, wow that is constructive debating. Everything I have written is as the opening letters states IMO (In My Opinion) and the fact that you have merely broad brushed your reply without going into details merely demonstrates that you aren’t interested in a proper debate. You are clearly a person who has bought into the propaganda of the conspirators believing that blocking Brexit and with it the democratic decision of the 17.4 million is acceptable. It isn’t and thank God we have Boris who is leading the charge to deliver that mandate and by the way the choice was In or Out and nothing about negotiating a deal. And one last thing, if a deal cannot be achieved then the case will harden amongst Leavers for a No Deal as clearly any deal would simply make us a bigger puppet of the EU than we are now. This will then open the door to Mr Farage and as a blocker if you think you see Boris as a problem you ain’t seen nothing yet. The reason I compare this type of conspiracy to those around Trump is that it mirrors the kind of things that have been happening in the USA and is following the populist trend. You even mention "make Britain Great Again" or similar. The reason I haven't dissected it in detail is because it isn't necessary. It's quite sufficient to just state it's all wrong. If you start in the wrong place then everywhere you go tends to be wrong. The wrong place is that there are "conspirators blocking Brexit" and that a "17.4 million vote in a referendum was democratic" and especially that "every MP should have respected the vote". They are just examples but they are all wrong. For instance, MPs are there to exercise their judgement on what we need. As I have said many times here we don't send them to Parliament as delegates to carry out the instructions we have given them in a referendum. They are our representatives who decide for themselves what is needed. They triggered Article 50 and have since been trying to find a way they can all accept to actually exit the EU. They have done, and are doing, the job we pay them to do. Which is not to "support the PM". Johnson leads a minority government. He is not a dictator. Parliament is his boss, not his servant. I fully expect the ultra Brexiteers to "harden" their position and moan and groan even more than they have so far about the unfairness of Parliamentary democracy, the rule of law and how it has stopped them getting their own way. Farage and his kind are the reason we are all in this mess in the first place but eventually they will be consigned to the history books, alongside people like Moseley and Powell, as noisy but ultimately insignificant figures in our political life. Then we can resume our steady progress towards the inclusive, fair and free society that we have gradually been evolving.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.08am |
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Originally posted by dannyboy1978
You agree the IMF, previous chancellors, bank of England have got things wrong in the past? We can add to that the cost of cross rail, Heathrow, Wembley, HS2, all budgeted wrong. Kenneth Clarke even wanted us to go in the euro, why would I listne to him! Blair lied SO the population took their experience not to Edited by dannyboy1978 (15 Oct 2019 3.17am) Edited by dannyboy1978 (15 Oct 2019 3.19am) What on earth are you talking about? Forecasts and opinions can be wrong, but that doesn't mean they are guesses. Nor does it mean that when politicians make campaign pledges that they are necessarily based on forecasts. Just as Johnson did yesterday they are much more often just wish lists offered as carrots to donkeys.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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