Who cares what you "believe" and what has that got to do with the real world?

I don't care that you don't care! What matters is whether it is true, or not. The real world includes a whole host of opinions alongside those you hold. Including mine.

It's now fairly well established that white people have a weaker in group preference than other groups and white liberals like yourself actually significantly prefer other races/groups than their own.

[Link]

You classify me as "white", without evidence. I just see myself as a person and try to treat everyone the same. I judge people on how they behave and not by anything arbitrary. I certainly prefer people who don't demonstrate racist tendencies.

Until anyone can produce detailed statistics on racially motivated crimes by the ethnicity of the perpetrator I simply don't believe there is more racism in this country by white people. There is no evidence to suggest this and the fact that these statistics now seem to be hidden (or are not collected) suggests some truth is being hidden. What we have now is a situation where a black person is invited to write an article, walk into a telivision studio, stand up on a stage or stand up in parliament and be openly racist towards white people without any signifiant push back and cheered on by many whites. The opposite scenario is clearly unthinkable.

This divide is huge and Brexit being "done" isn't going to cure it despite the leavers wanting those who disagree to accept they have "won" and to "suck it up". In fact those attitudes demonstrate part of the whole problem.

But divides always exist. That is the point of having a democratic system. Different ideas are proposed within an accepted electoral framework, people cast their votes and a winner emerges.

Not as big as this divide. This is on a whole different scale.

And up until 2016, this was how the over-whelming majority of people not only thought but fully accepted.

Traditional political divides have been cast aside. Brexit is but a symptom of this and not the cause.

We voted on June 23rd and a majority decision was reached that the UK leave the EU. It should have been done and dusted. Yet there then followed a disgusting (and I make zero apologies for using that emotive word) campaign to effectively have that decision over-turned before it could be implemented. Absolutely ripping up the previous, and what I considered absolute, convention that votes had to be counted and then respected.

BS. A small majority was shown up in a flawed, compromised, undemocratic referendum that our elected Parliament disagreed with but failed to do it's duty and overturn. The ONLY convention that matters is that Parliament is supreme.

That is the primary cause of the division. That wound, that attempt to scupper the decision of the 52%, that is what has damaged our society.

More BS. What this has shown is that the primary cause of the division is that our system of democracy has failed because it is not truly democratic. FPTP has failed and we need to switch to PR so that the people's real opinions can all be counted and matter. We need all strands of opinion to have a voice in Parliament and for compromise to be the natural state of affairs. No "winning" or "losing" concepts any more. That's what causes division and conflict.

Now I get that this has to be healed but I have seen virtually no apologies from those who attempted to usurp the very basic core concept of universal suffrage that lays at the heart of our notion of what democracy is meant to mean, a concept that we are told lives have been sacrificed to protect. I admit to struggling to have conversations much beyond the basic level of civility with people who campaigned to have my vote on June 23rd rendered null and void and acknowledge that perhaps I do need to be a little bit more forgiving but what is coming from your side of the divide? Very little from what I can make out.

You completely miss the point. No one wants your vote null and voided. What is demanded is simply that the votes of the true majority must matter more than any individual or group. If we go on returning governments elected by a minority then the divide will not be healed. FPTP is the problem along with allowing important complex single issue questions to be answered by plebiscite.

You completely miss the point. No one wants your vote null and voided. What is demanded is simply that the votes of the true majority must matter more than any individual or group. If we go on returning governments elected by a minority then the divide will not be healed. FPTP is the problem along with allowing important complex single issue questions to be answered by plebiscite.

. A small majority was shown up in a flawed, compromised, undemocratic referendum that our elected Parliament disagreed with but failed to do it's duty and overturn. The ONLY convention that matters is that Parliament is supreme.

You have a total misunderstanding of PR. The last Irish government had 28% of the vote - and that was more than the previous one.
The deal was done with the major opposition party so that business could continue. What the people got was more of the same.
Boris at well over 40% is the biggest party vote by some distance. Are you refuting that now? A bit like the way an open referendum went one way but you can't agree? I'm presuming you didn't do that well in maths O level.
However, I would like to see some kind of PR give people like the Liberals and the Greens a few more seats. Not because I like them - I don't. But because there is little return for a lot of votes in the Westminster model. Genuinely takes a lot more nuanced thought than scrapping FPTP.
Perhaps scrap the Lords and have a PR House there to start with. A senate or such like.

Edited by ASCPFC (20 Feb 2020 11.44am)

Why black in quotes?

Because that's the term used by you. For me the colour of any person's skin is irrelevant.

Interesting use of the word *cannot*. So we "cannot" take anything at face value?

Of course you can. Just not this thing.

Congratulations of your clever use of nuance - which it really isn't. You do the same thing every time i.e. drown a fact based discussion in a self congratulary word salad, side step the facts and claim the moral high ground. It's all you have.

Not a lot of fact in your previous comment.Just rather a lot of dubious opinion.

You are still oozing by the way.

Just checked. Not a sign of any "ooze" anywhere.

Just a question....why do you insist on typing "black" 'white'.....black people refer to themselves as BLACK....not "black".If they are black theyre black..what are you scared of? Does it make you feel better to not say the word without "..."

Edited by the silurian (20 Feb 2020 3.27pm)

According to almost everyone in positions in influence in this country ethnicity, gender and sexual preference now mean everything
Including defining your character. If those are the rules that we have to play to then I’ll be forced to stick with my own as the stakes are as high as they get. Never bring a knife to a gun fight as they say (that’s not meant in poor taste by the way).