This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
Visit the current forum | Forum Rules
hedgehog50  Croydon 19 Jun 17 8.21am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Kermit8
Protectionism. Wrong.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
|
Cucking Funt | hedgehog50 Croydon 19 Jun 17 10.47am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Cucking Funt
Never thought I'd find myself agreeing with George Galloway.... Yes, very good analysis. Galloway can talk a lot of sense when he chooses to. It is a great shame about his anti-Semite, anti-Western and pro-Islamic terrorism views though. Edited by hedgehog50 (19 Jun 2017 10.49am)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
|
 Kermit8  Hevon 19 Jun 17 10.53am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by hedgehog50
Yes, very good analysis. Galloway can talk a lot of sense when he chooses to. It is a great shame about his anti-Semite, anti-Western and pro-Islamic terrorism views though. Edited by hedgehog50 (19 Jun 2017 10.49am) So what you are basically saying is that his judgement is flawed which then must mean, obviously, his views can't be trusted and the article therefore should be treated with a pinch of salt.
Big chest and massive boobs |
|
| legaleagle 19 Jun 17 11.19am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by hedgehog50
Leave as quickly as possible, any deals should not involve free movement of people, parliamentary sovereignty must be assured as should British courts' jurisdiction. but surely that would empower the Mail's self -declared "enemies of the people?"
|
|
 Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jun 17 11.39am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by legaleagle
but surely that would empower the Mail's self -declared "enemies of the people?" A general principle can't be rejected because of one example of misuse.
|
|
| jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Jun 17 11.51am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by europalace
er, no, it's not as simple as that. If you're from the US then you might view it as simple because you're not part of the EU. The British will only start to understand the impact of leaving starting this week and fully unfolding over the next 22 months as negotiations start and proceed over that period of time. At the end of that period, the actual deal on the plate that was voted for will be known, not any sooner than that. Yep, its almost as complicated as a state leaving the US union. I think most people would accept a compromise over the 'free market' but not on freedom of movement and the degree of EU laws that affect the UK outside of trade agreements (I'd keep the ECHR but limit the jurisdiction of the EU parliament to Common Market trade issues only). When we had the referendum on joining the EU it was as an economic and trade entity. Then during the 90s the shift towards an European parliament and devolving sovereignty of borders (that makes sense for many mainland European nations) was never subject to a referendum of the people. As such, a series of governments have acted 'on behalf of the people of the UK' without the permission of the UK to surrender that jurisdiction and that has been exploited towards the interests of the EU and Corporations, over the citizens of the EU nations, without their consent.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
| hedgehog50 Croydon 19 Jun 17 11.53am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Kermit8
So what you are basically saying is that his judgement is flawed which then must mean, obviously, his views can't be trusted and the article therefore should be treated with a pinch of salt. Half of the people can be part right all of the time
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
|
| Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jun 17 1.04pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by serial thriller
What a f*cking mess. Honestly, if I was EU leaders and David Davis walked in the room, I'd probably be asking him to politely leave and bring Keir Starmer in as there's almost no way the Tories will be in power in 6 months' time. The DUP haven't agreed any deal with the Tories. May is a dead woman walking. The Tories, as a party, are so horribly split and fractured at the moment that I doubt anyone knows who they'll be negotiating on behalf of. They are sliding at a remarkable rate in opinion polls, and are under intense scrutiny now after the Greenfell fire. All in all I don't remember a time of more instability in this country, and doubt there's been one since the war. To be going in to negotiations, which apparently end tonight (!) regarding 40% of our legislation, is absolute anarchy. Where as Labour are so united. We might be a little better position if people had voted for stability rather than 'hope'.
|
|
| serial thriller The Promised Land 19 Jun 17 1.11pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Where as Labour are so united. We might be a little better position if people had voted for stability rather than 'hope'. Stability for what? Stable wage stagnation? Stable unsafe social housing? Stable dismantling of the NHS? Stable weekly terror attacks? Stable infighting within the cabinet? The Tories claimed they were the stable option and the electorate evidently decided they weren't. Within a week, the electorate have been vindicated. We are now, primarily because of the Tories' hubris, entering the most unstable period of British history in most of our lifetimes. Things are now so unstable, that a socialist looks set to enter number 10 on a landslide, something even I thought I would never see happen in this country.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
|
europalace  Europe 19 Jun 17 1.21pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The country voted to leave the EU. Talks to leave the EU should be conducted by leavers. David Davies voted leave, Keir Starmer is a remainer who would be a disaster. What about the other 48% of the British population? I think you going to be sorely disappointed. The u-turns will be many and the compromises regular. The EU has a massive upper hand going into these negotiations with a very weak UK government. The only thing that will change the weak government will be another general election, which again will instill fear in investors and yet again play right into the hands of the EU. It's a lose-lose situation for the UK unfortunately and feel very sorry for the many friends of mine still there.
|
|
| Stirlingsays 19 Jun 17 1.41pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by europalace
What about the other 48% of the British population? I think you going to be sorely disappointed. The u-turns will be many and the compromises regular. The EU has a massive upper hand going into these negotiations with a very weak UK government. The only thing that will change the weak government will be another general election, which again will instill fear in investors and yet again play right into the hands of the EU. It's a lose-lose situation for the UK unfortunately and feel very sorry for the many friends of mine still there. I have some sympathy for the 'what about the 48% of the British population' argument. Still, I don't think you can conduct a negotiation using proportional representation. Business isn't done that way. We are a 'first past the post' society so I don't see any sensible argument for remainers to reflect policy when they lost. On a separate but related point weren't you were arguing against democracy in a previou0s post...oh sorry yes...apparently you like democracy but don't like referendums. So we shouldn't really have joined the common market in the first place....and if we had a government who doesn't agree with the EU we should just leave...and then join back when a EU supporting government comes in....Are you seeing the problem with legitimacy here? Unless you ask the people a direct question you any government can claim a mandate.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| europalace Europe 19 Jun 17 1.47pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I have some sympathy for the 'what about the 48% of the British population' argument. Still, I don't think you can conduct a negotiation using proportional representation. Business isn't done that way. We are a 'first past the post' society so I don't see any sensible argument for remainers to reflect policy when they lost. On a separate but related point weren't you were arguing against democracy in a previou0s post...oh sorry yes...apparently you like democracy but don't like referendums. So we shouldn't really have joined the common market in the first place....and if we had a government who doesn't agree with the EU we should just leave...and then join back when a EU supporting government comes in....Are you seeing the problem with legitimacy here? Unless you ask the people a direct question you any government can claim a mandate.
|
|
| Kermit8 Hevon 19 Jun 17 1.49pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I have some sympathy for the 'what about the 48% of the British population' argument. Still, I don't think you can conduct a negotiation using proportional representation. Business isn't done that way. We are a 'first past the post' society so I don't see any sensible argument for remainers to reflect policy when they lost. On a separate but related point weren't you were arguing against democracy in a previou0s post...oh sorry yes...apparently you like democracy but don't like referendums. So we shouldn't really have joined the common market in the first place....and if we had a government who doesn't agree with the EU we should just leave...and then join back when a EU supporting government comes in....Are you seeing the problem with legitimacy here? Unless you ask the people a direct question you any government can claim a mandate. If the 55%/45% minimum requirement threshold for major change had been implemented years ago for referendums and if Leave had still won I reckon everything would be going a helluvalot smoother now. The proposition that the nation has spoken would have much stronger foundations. It's frankly ridiculous that one side could win or lose by one vote around a 50/50 split.
Big chest and massive boobs |
|
| Stirlingsays 19 Jun 17 1.54pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Kermit8
If the 55%/45% minimum requirement threshold for major change had been implemented years ago for referendums and if Leave had still won I reckon everything would be going a helluvalot smoother now. The proposition that the nation has spoken would have much stronger foundations. It's frankly ridiculous that one side could win or lose by one vote around a 50/50 split. So would you agree with that same mentality for changing government in elections as that's also a major change?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Stirlingsays 19 Jun 17 1.56pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by europalace
That wasn't you? I can't be bothered to spend ten minutes looking it up....If you say it wasn't you in that discussion then I'll accept that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jun 17 1.57pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by serial thriller
Stability for what? Stable wage stagnation? Stable unsafe social housing? Stable dismantling of the NHS? Stable weekly terror attacks? Stable infighting within the cabinet? The Tories claimed they were the stable option and the electorate evidently decided they weren't. Within a week, the electorate have been vindicated. We are now, primarily because of the Tories' hubris, entering the most unstable period of British history in most of our lifetimes. Things are now so unstable, that a socialist looks set to enter number 10 on a landslide, something even I thought I would never see happen in this country. Codswallop. Wage stagnation is largely due to immigration. You can mostly blame Mr Blair for that. Terror attacks? Mr Blair can take a fair chunk of blame for the environment we are now in. It is funny that you blame the Tories for the actions of Islamists. Very funny. There is no dismantling of the NHS. That is age old lefty spin. There is only a recognition that it can't continue as it is. Mr Blair did plenty to damage the NHS. And Cabinet infighting? At least the Tories broadly support that own leader. Had Corbyn not polled better than expected he would have been publicly vilified by most of his party by now.
|
|
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2025 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.