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 Rudi Hedman  Caterham 26 Nov 19 11.52pm |
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Originally posted by Jway89
I think the deficit is misrepresented, most of the time on purpose and obviously because politicians just dont understand it. There are basically 2 deficits. The first is a necessity. If the gov doesnt print money, how else are you going to get it? The second can be good and bad. If you have a trade deficit, the likelihood is you are in a developed country and trying to run a surplus will most likely lead to a recession. The problem is private debt, but, the genie has been let out now and the mass debt people are taking on end up being assets to the wealthy and obviously support smaller businesses, etc. Im not even sure what would happen if the banks started lending 'conservatively'. Answer. Borrowing by releasing bonds onto the bond market. That’s fiscal policy. Increasing money supply by printing money is monetary policy. Private debt is indeed a big problem in Britain but it’s a system that keeps people in the sh1tty jobs to make repayments. Edited by Rudi Hedman (26 Nov 2019 11.55pm)
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| Stirlingsays 26 Nov 19 11.55pm |
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Originally posted by Jway89
I think the deficit is misrepresented, most of the time on purpose and obviously because politicians just dont understand it. There are basically 2 deficits. The first is a necessity. If the gov doesnt print money, how else are you going to get it? I'm being a little dim here because it isn't my area ...but taxation? Raise what you require and live within that budget. Originally posted by Jway89
The second can be good and bad. If you have a trade deficit, the likelihood is you are in a developed country and trying to run a surplus will most likely lead to a recession. I think Trump's approach has seriously dented some of these assumptions. He was told that re-balancing these trade agreements would send the US and world economy spiraling downwards....didn't happen. Trump is determined to reduce trade deficits and quite frankly his approach hasn't had the 'experts' predicted downturn effects. Originally posted by Jway89
The problem is private debt, but, the genie has been let out now and the mass debt people are taking on end up being assets to the wealthy and obviously support smaller businesses, etc. Im not even sure what would happen if the banks started lending 'conservatively'.
I get what you are saying....that economies run on debt and promises of interest repayments down the line. But long term isn't this system holed below the water line? Can capitalism just continue forever with ever increasing debt levels.....Surely the interest on these things is going to be too large at some point.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Badger11 Beckenham 27 Nov 19 7.37am |
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Originally posted by Jimenez
Some free advice here. Anyone still thinking of voting for Corbyn after that train wreck of an Interview, I suggest you see a doctor in the morning. It appears that the MSM would agree with you this morning, not Corbyn's finest hour. Labour social media groups are tweeting to the faithful how to handle the fall out. His refusal to apologise for the problems of anti Semitism just smacks of bad grace rather like a 5Y0 defiantly saying to mummy "wont". What makes it even odder is Labour are so keen on this country apologising and self flagellating itself over all sorts of issues and yet can't bring it self to set an example. Johnson must be on soon and I bet his advisors are thinking if we can get through this without too many disasters that will be a major result. So far Brillo has skewered all of those he has interviewed the man is on fire. Andrew Neil for PM anyone? Edited by Badger11 (27 Nov 2019 7.39am) Edited by Badger11 (27 Nov 2019 7.40am)
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| Matov 27 Nov 19 8.08am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
His refusal to apologise for the problems of anti Semitism just smacks of bad grace rather like a 5Y0 defiantly saying to mummy "wont". What makes it even odder is Labour are so keen on this country apologising and self flagellating itself over all sorts of issues and yet can't bring it self to set an example. Edited by Badger11 (27 Nov 2019 7.39am) Edited by Badger11 (27 Nov 2019 7.40am) Might be bad grace but the electoral reality is that his stance actually garners Labour more votes than it loses. That is the Elephant in the room that nobody likes to admit. In terms of voting, the Jewish vote is of far less important to Labour than that of the Muslims. And this entire 'anti-semitism' row is primarily about Corbyn's critique of Israel and support for the Palestinian cause. Which plays well with his supporters.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Stirlingsays 27 Nov 19 8.44am |
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Originally posted by Matov
Might be bad grace but the electoral reality is that his stance actually garners Labour more votes than it loses. That is the Elephant in the room that nobody likes to admit. In terms of voting, the Jewish vote is of far less important to Labour than that of the Muslims. And this entire 'anti-semitism' row is primarily about Corbyn's critique of Israel and support for the Palestinian cause. Which plays well with his supporters. Precisely. The whole saga is a demonstration of the difference between reality and 'isms'. The reality is that Corbyn is pro Palestinian and anti Zionist and that to be frank is most of the party grass roots. Does being anti Zionist mean that you're anti semitic?......Well Zionism is Jewish nationalism and anti semitism is not liking Jews. It's not the same thing but it requires good faith and a wiliness to accept distinctions from your adversary to recognise it. . Well Labour have zero good faith when it comes to recognising the differences within Islam so why should they be afforded good faith in return.......Look what Corbyn and Labour did to Sarah Champion. It's all interest groups abusing their influence to paint black and white narratives in the media. The truth is that Corbyn has no problems with Jews who agree with him and there are Jews in Labour who do. But as we know Corbyn has no problem pushing lies on 'isms' himself for Labour's political gain...and so he himself doesn't care for nuance when it doesn't suit so feck him and the horse he rode in on. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Nov 2019 9.03am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Badger11 Beckenham 27 Nov 19 9.03am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Precisely. The whole saga is a demonstration of the difference between reality and 'isms'. The reality is that Corbyn is pro Palestinian and anti Zionist and that to be frank is most of the party grass roots. Does being anti Zionist mean that you're anti semitic?......Well Zionism is Jewish nationalism and anti semitism is not liking Jews. It's not the same thing but it requires good faith and a wiliness to accept distinctions from your adversary to recognise it. . Well Labour have zero good faith when it comes to recognising the differences within Islam so why should they be afforded good faith in return.......Look what Corbyn and Labour did to Sarah Champion. It's all interest groups abusing their influence to paint black and white narratives in the media. The truth is that Corbyn has no problems with Jews who agree with him and there are Jews in Labour who do. But as we know Corbyn has no problem pushing lies on 'isms' himself for Labour's political gain...and so he himself doesn't care for nuance when it comes to Islam so feck him and the horse he rode in on. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Nov 2019 8.50am) I don't disagree with what you and Matov say about the committed supporters however I still have faith in the common-sense of most British people. As I have said many times on this forum the silent majority do not like extremists left or right and the elections show that. Corbyn maybe be playing to his supporters but that is not going to win over the uncommitted. At the last 2017 GE Labour did well where it always does well. I suspect you will see them increase their percentage share of the vote agin in those areas like London. However I don't believe that will lead to more seats as Labour are now the "nasty party" in the eyes of many. It's a shame that a once great party that stood for something and gave us the NHS is now full of spite and malice "if you're not for us you're against us". It must break the hearts of those moderate Labour people.
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| Stirlingsays 27 Nov 19 9.17am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
I don't disagree with what you and Matov say about the committed supporters however I still have faith in the common-sense of most British people. As I have said many times on this forum the silent majority do not like extremists left or right and the elections show that. Corbyn maybe be playing to his supporters but that is not going to win over the uncommitted. At the last 2017 GE Labour did well where it always does well. I suspect you will see them increase their percentage share of the vote agin in those areas like London. However I don't believe that will lead to more seats as Labour are now the "nasty party" in the eyes of many. It's a shame that a once great party that stood for something and gave us the NHS is now full of spite and malice "if you're not for us you're against us". It must break the hearts of those moderate Labour people. I'd agree with your general analysis. There are demographics where their stance is supported but for the general WASP...who make up the majority...it won't be. The average British voter is not particularly political. They take the majority messages from the media and broadly accept it unless it runs against their personal interest.....when it most circumstances it doesn't. Now I don't agree with Corbyn and Labour over Israel, but I understand why they hold that position.....and I see the ethics of it....I just don't agree with them. As for what is extreme and what isn't, that is of course entirely subjective. If you had suggested twenty years ago that we would be teaching homosexuality acceptance within primary schools I think many would have viewed that as extreme. The recent media and political shifts on transgenderism could also be regarded as extreme. But it's all about perception and media messages.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Badger11 Beckenham 27 Nov 19 9.26am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'd agree with your general analysis. There are demographics where their stance is supported but for the general WASP...who make up the majority...it won't be. The average British voter is not particularly political. They take the majority messages from the media and broadly accept it unless it runs against their personal interest.....when it most circumstances it doesn't. Now I don't agree with Corbyn and Labour over Israel, but I understand why they hold that position.....and I see the ethics of it....I just don't agree with them. As for what is extreme and what isn't, that is of course entirely subjective. If you had suggested twenty years ago that we would be teaching homosexuality acceptance within primary schools I think many would have viewed that as extreme. The recent media and political shifts on transgenderism could also be regarded as extreme. But it's all about perception and media messages. Just heard one of the Birmingham school protestors get skewered by Nick Ferrari. Regardless of where you stand on the issue the guy was a jerk. Complaining the court was bias implying they would ignore the court order to stop which was also brought by neighbours who life is currently hell. He demanded his right of free speech which I think is great so he will support my right to criticise Islam? Oh right that's not the same thing that's Islamophobia. My sympathy is with the neighbours who have been suffering this noisy protest for months. Edited by Badger11 (27 Nov 2019 9.27am)
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| Stirlingsays 27 Nov 19 9.49am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Just heard one of the Birmingham school protestors get skewered by Nick Ferrari. Regardless of where you stand on the issue the guy was a jerk. Complaining the court was bias implying they would ignore the court order to stop which was also brought by neighbours who life is currently hell. He demanded his right of free speech which I think is great so he will support my right to criticise Islam? Oh right that's not the same thing that's Islamophobia. My sympathy is with the neighbours who have been suffering this noisy protest for months. Edited by Badger11 (27 Nov 2019 9.27am) I didn't hear it but I have no doubt your analysis is accurate. I'm of course against this policy but of course I don't agree with the harassment. I predict that unfortunately this situation is going to get pretty nasty.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Badger11 Beckenham 27 Nov 19 10.07am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I didn't hear it but I have no doubt your analysis is accurate. I'm of course against this policy but of course I don't agree with the harassment. I predict that unfortunately this situation is going to get pretty nasty. Certainly sounded like it will, of course this gentleman may not speak for the rest. The ban relates to the loud hailers I wouldn't want that outside my front door even if I agreed with them.
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 27 Nov 19 10.09am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'd agree with your general analysis. There are demographics where their stance is supported but for the general WASP...who make up the majority...it won't be. The average British voter is not particularly political. They take the majority messages from the media and broadly accept it unless it runs against their personal interest.....when it most circumstances it doesn't. Now I don't agree with Corbyn and Labour over Israel, but I understand why they hold that position.....and I see the ethics of it....I just don't agree with them. As for what is extreme and what isn't, that is of course entirely subjective. If you had suggested twenty years ago that we would be teaching homosexuality acceptance within primary schools I think many would have viewed that as extreme. The recent media and political shifts on transgenderism could also be regarded as extreme. But it's all about perception and media messages. Can you briefly say why you agree with the ethics but don’t agree with them? I also have my views on the land grabbing and annexing and plenty of Jews would just want to change the subject quickly in their right for Israel to exist. I agree with your opinion that Jews have been good for Britain and I keep my thoughts of Zionism separate, and I can bet some Jews won’t allow me to do so, or try to not allow me to, which could be part of the following problem, but Corbyn hasn’t convinced there’s a distinction. With Corbyn and labour I think the distinction between the two has become confused. There’s been bullying and applying a feeling among much of the community. There’s also little doubt in my mind the politics of envy comes rushing to the surface and these lefties can’t control themselves with this passionate feeling of whoever shouldn’t have what. Jews have got their sh1t together and in my opinion it’s a big banner saying leave these people the fvck alone, but they can’t help themselves and they need people who need Labour. I would say hopefully they’re done but we know this is the early days of the rise of socialism because of imported support. Or Corbyn could just not get involved or poke his beak into every minority or issue everywhere, like other shadow leaders, or even PM’s, but that’s him and his protest default. Edited by Rudi Hedman (27 Nov 2019 10.19am)
COYP |
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| Midlands Eagle 27 Nov 19 10.30am |
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Originally posted by Matov
Might be bad grace but the electoral reality is that his stance actually garners Labour more votes than it loses. That is the Elephant in the room that nobody likes to admit. In terms of voting, the Jewish vote is of far less important to Labour than that of the Muslims. The Jews may only account for a small minority of voters but other minorities may think "who's next" First they came for the Communists Then they came for the Socialists Then they came for the trade unionists Then they came for the Jews Then they came for me
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| Badger11 Beckenham 27 Nov 19 10.51am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
The Jews may only account for a small minority of voters but other minorities may think "who's next" First they came for the Communists Then they came for the Socialists Then they came for the trade unionists Then they came for the Jews Then they came for me And for those who don't recognise that poem is written by a German Priest who had an anti Semitic past and post war realised the errors of his way.
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| Deleted11 27 Nov 19 11.13am | |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Answer. Borrowing by releasing bonds onto the bond market. That’s fiscal policy. Increasing money supply by printing money is monetary policy. Private debt is indeed a big problem in Britain but it’s a system that keeps people in the sh1tty jobs to make repayments. Edited by Rudi Hedman (26 Nov 2019 11.55pm) Yes, however, we need to be able to service our debt. If our national debt was called up, at any point in time, we would be able to service it.
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 27 Nov 19 11.25am |
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Originally posted by Jway89
Yes, however, we need to be able to service our debt. If our national debt was called up, at any point in time, we would be able to service it. Yes, although national debt from bonds isn’t ‘called up’ at any time because the bonds have a specific lifespan. In 10 years the bond holder is paid by the treasury (government). If you’re talking about reducing the deficit so the increase in borrowing is reduced year n year then yes, you ideally don’t want the debt to forever grow.
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| Deleted11 27 Nov 19 11.32am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Originally posted by Jway89 The first is a necessity. If the gov doesnt print money, how else are you going to get it? I'm being a little dim here because it isn't my area ...but taxation? Raise what you require and live within that budget. Absolutely. Now, let's say we held a referendum on what we wanted as a society and for the sake of simplicity, the vote was 52/48 in favour of all the social services we have now. That means higher taxes for everyone, but with the 'rich' paying more, in effect having a harsher tax system than what Labour a currently proposing. Rich people will be fleeing left, right and centre. Originally posted by Jway89 I think Trump's approach has seriously dented some of these assumptions. He was told that re-balancing these trade agreements would send the US and world economy spiraling downwards....didn't happen. Trump is determined to reduce trade deficits and quite frankly his approach hasn't had the 'experts' predicted downturn effects. Big difference between trying and actually doing. If you can point out anything Trump has actually implemented, of note, with regards to trade deficits, please show me. I'd probably give him kudos for NAFTA. This, conveniently, leads to Brexit. The idea that the UK would be able to do anything but bend over and let the EU, Asia and the USA do whatever they wanted in regards to trade is quite laughable. Not saying Brexit is stupid, as there are plenty of issues with the EU, but the protection it offers, economically, for me, outweighs the negatives. Originally posted by Jway89 Im not even sure what would happen if the banks started lending 'conservatively'.
I get what you are saying....that economies run on debt and promises of interest repayments down the line. But long term isn't this system holed below the water line? Can capitalism just continue forever with ever increasing debt levels.....Surely the interest on these things is going to be too large at some point. Interest rates in the EU are largely 0 to negative. Base rate is 0.75% here and I think inflation is in and around 2%, so in effect negative. Bonds are basically being traded as shares with no dividends, just appreciation. God knows how that's going to work.
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| Stirlingsays 27 Nov 19 11.35am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Can you briefly say why you agree with the ethics but don’t agree with them? I also have my views on the land grabbing and annexing and plenty of Jews would just want to change the subject quickly in their right for Israel to exist. I agree with your opinion that Jews have been good for Britain and I keep my thoughts of Zionism separate, and I can bet some Jews won’t allow me to do so, or try to not allow me to, which could be part of the following problem, but Corbyn hasn’t convinced there’s a distinction. With Corbyn and labour I think the distinction between the two has become confused. There’s been bullying and applying a feeling among much of the community. There’s also little doubt in my mind the politics of envy comes rushing to the surface and these lefties can’t control themselves with this passionate feeling of whoever shouldn’t have what. Jews have got their sh1t together and in my opinion it’s a big banner saying leave these people the fvck alone, but they can’t help themselves and they need people who need Labour. I would say hopefully they’re done but we know this is the early days of the rise of socialism because of imported support. Or Corbyn could just not get involved or poke his beak into every minority or issue everywhere, like other shadow leaders, or even PM’s, but that’s him and his protest default. Edited by Rudi Hedman (27 Nov 2019 10.19am) I'd agree with much of that. I think with Corbyn it's all very well taking a position of anti zionist but when you have appeared with Hamas and been cordial with them it's pretty hard to convince the Jewish lobby that it's all about nuanced distinction....he made his own bed there. As for my views on the Israel/Palestine question. Essentially I agree with the Israeli view that peace is impossible. They are locked into a life and death struggle until they clear the west bank and Gaza and there are regime changes in Iran....and probably Qatar. The ethics of it.....Well there isn't any....It's horrible and nothing but unfairness and injustice. My advice to Palestinians is to get out into Arab lands....because no one significant really cares. Totally unjust of course but that's the reality. That's what happened when the UN gave them that patch of land in 47. Essentially I agreed with Einstein's view.....It should never have happened and that Jews will have to fight if they want survival there. It's a sh1tshow and the Palestinians are going to be slowly forced from the remaining land using the slow process that's been in action over decades. So my position is the I much prefer Jews to Arabs but that it's the Arabs who have suffered the injustice since WW2. Essentially it's 'might is right', which is how the real world works and that's just how it is. The Arabs have their chances to take back that land in five wars and lost all of them and Israel continued to expand.....Them the breaks.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Attachment: | Rudi Hedman Caterham 27 Nov 19 12.33pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'd agree with much of that. I think with Corbyn it's all very well taking a position of anti zionist but when you have appeared with Hamas and been cordial with them it's pretty hard to convince the Jewish lobby that it's all about nuanced distinction....he made his own bed there. As for my views on the Israel/Palestine question. Essentially I agree with the Israeli view that peace is impossible. They are locked into a life and death struggle until they clear the west bank and Gaza and there are regime changes in Iran....and probably Qatar. The ethics of it.....Well there isn't any....It's horrible and nothing but unfairness and injustice. My advice to Palestinians is to get out into Arab lands....because no one significant really cares. Totally unjust of course but that's the reality. That's what happened when the UN gave them that patch of land in 47. Essentially I agreed with Einstein's view.....It should never have happened and that Jews will have to fight if they want survival there. It's a sh1tshow and the Palestinians are going to be slowly forced from the remaining land using the slow process that's been in action over decades. So my position is the I much prefer Jews to Arabs but that it's the Arabs who have suffered the injustice since WW2. Essentially it's 'might is right', which is how the real world works and that's just how it is. The Arabs have their chances to take back that land in five wars and lost all of them and Israel continued to expand.....Them the breaks.
Yes I can’t really disagree with that. I agree that if I were Palestinian I’d get out of there, but then if I were Israeli I’d get out of there as well and try America. I would’ve done years and years ago, especially as real estate value must be rising and rising. Pretty difficult to accept a potential PM has been friends with terrorist groups, and then you factor in terrorist groups in opposition to his (ahem) country and its closest allies. Amazing really. Any of these politicians could be leaders or PMs in future. Frightening. No unwritten rules anymore. Gangs stampeding into power is where we’re going (again, gulp).
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| Stirlingsays 27 Nov 19 12.42pm |
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Originally posted by Jway89
I think on trade until the US deals with China the ultimate conclusions can't be drawn.....Trump can be celebrated for being the one who finally drew the line in the sand. I note that Trump drew more favourable deals with the EU and Mexico.....I don't know what the current trade situation looks like but I note the strength of the US economy. That's really the point here....the predicted disasters that many 'experts' predicted from Trump's tax and trade plans simply haven't happened.....I've been listening to the critical book on Trump, 'Fear'....those predictions simply didn't occur. On Brexit, I think there are both disadvantages and advantages to being outside the EU trading block. Merkel has stated her fears of how the UK can compete and it's a reality that if the EU plays dirty that we can respond dirty as well and make Ireland look like amateurs. I think the reality will be a compromise....I think that's what Boris's deal is and I think that's how the EU/UK relations will start off post Brexit. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Nov 2019 12.43pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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