Israel / Palestine
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 Stirlingsays  10 Aug 14 12.59am |
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Quote legaleagle at 09 Aug 2014 11.58am
Agree re not being strong enough in "conventional" military terms to directly challenge Israel in 10 years, but 10 years of mobilising for effective "guerrilla warfare" inside the 1967 boundaries coming from Gaza and the West Bank could be a game changer. viz how effective a force Hezbollah became in Lebanon.. The problem is how would a short-termist right wing government in Israel (would that the Labour Party was in power) sell it to their constituency, having so successfully sought to ramp up public opinion for political ends to date. Edited by legaleagle (09 Aug 2014 12.00pm) Edited by legaleagle (09 Aug 2014 12.07pm)
The other answer suggested that Hamas would never gain the strength to be a threat to Israel.......Which kind of missed the point that it would be a hell of a lot stronger than now and that....Just allowing the chance would be questionable judgement. The reality is that.....As it stands....There can be no peace between a Hamas led Gaza and Israel. I would question the sanity of an Israeli government who were looking to make peace with Hamas.....Indeed even the Labour party in Israel are against even the idea. We are stuck with the present......Israel will leave Gaza (making Nick look particularly silly) and carry on their blockage and Hamas will keep sending over their mostly ineffective rockets. Until the moderates take over on both sides nothing really is going to change......Indeed, I think both sides have accepted that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Kermit8  Hevon 10 Aug 14 8.40am |
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^^^^^^ With Rabin's assassination and Israel's right-wing's subsequent helping hand to spawn the Hamas of today - you have to remember that to them Hamas is not the real enemy; Palestinian statehood is - I think it is fair to say that even if moderates were in power in the Knesset the extremists that sit alongside them would quite happily have them taken out if they olive-branched a bit to much on the old two-state solution. Real peace will only slowly evolve if the extreme right in Israel are disappeared. Then, Hamas and their ilk will be undermined too and eventually lose power. This will be the time for the moderates. Reckon it will happen around the year stardate 2147
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| Palacetinian Surrey Fam 10 Aug 14 1.51pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 10 Aug 2014 8.40am
^^^^^^ With Rabin's assassination and Israel's right-wing's subsequent helping hand to spawn the Hamas of today - you have to remember that to them Hamas is not the real enemy; Palestinian statehood is - I think it is fair to say that even if moderates were in power in the Knesset the extremists that sit alongside them would quite happily have them taken out if they olive-branched a bit to much on the old two-state solution. Real peace will only slowly evolve if the extreme right in Israel are disappeared. Then, Hamas and their ilk will be undermined too and eventually lose power. This will be the time for the moderates. Reckon it will happen around the year stardate 2147 One of the most sensible posts on the subject from a fellow HOLer!
Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)! |
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| Stirlingsays 10 Aug 14 3.41pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 10 Aug 2014 8.40am
^^^^^^ With Rabin's assassination and Israel's right-wing's subsequent helping hand to spawn the Hamas of today - you have to remember that to them Hamas is not the real enemy; Palestinian statehood is - I think it is fair to say that even if moderates were in power in the Knesset the extremists that sit alongside them would quite happily have them taken out if they olive-branched a bit to much on the old two-state solution. Real peace will only slowly evolve if the extreme right in Israel are disappeared. Then, Hamas and their ilk will be undermined too and eventually lose power. This will be the time for the moderates. Reckon it will happen around the year stardate 2147
I guess that is where we differ.......though your statement, 'Israel's right-wing's subsequent helping hand to spawn the Hamas of today' is a decidedly loaded statement that I feel intends to off load blame for Palestinian terrorism onto Israel. It's probably true that the funding of the religious charity organization that would become 'Hamas' in 73 was partly done to sow division against the PLO. It is another thing entirely to state that Israel could look into its crystal ball and hope for an organization that would use suicide bombers to kill hundreds of Israelis every year.....So that they could justify fighting them. It's nonsense......Israel went on several peace efforts which came very close to securing a two state solution.....Why would they have bothered? Also why bother creating something to fight when the PLO were already fighting them? No Israel, the right or the left, never intended to create an organization that would fight them. Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Aug 2014 3.41pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 10 Aug 14 3.45pm |
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But Kermit there's truth in stating there is a fear of a Palestinian state in Israel. There is very little advantage to its creation for them. It would have to come with guarantees and all that is so much 'pie in the sky'. Both sides, for their various reasons have settled for continual war.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 10 Aug 14 4.27pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 10 Aug 2014 3.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 10 Aug 2014 8.40am
^^^^^^ With Rabin's assassination and Israel's right-wing's subsequent helping hand to spawn the Hamas of today - you have to remember that to them Hamas is not the real enemy; Palestinian statehood is - I think it is fair to say that even if moderates were in power in the Knesset the extremists that sit alongside them would quite happily have them taken out if they olive-branched a bit to much on the old two-state solution. Real peace will only slowly evolve if the extreme right in Israel are disappeared. Then, Hamas and their ilk will be undermined too and eventually lose power. This will be the time for the moderates. Reckon it will happen around the year stardate 2147
It's probably true that the funding of the religious charity organization that would become 'Hamas' in 73 was partly done to sow division against the PLO. It is another thing entirely to state that Israel could look into its crystal ball and hope for an organization that would use suicide bombers to kill hundreds of Israelis every year.....So that they could justify fighting them. It's nonsense......Israel went on several peace efforts which came very close to securing a two state solution.....Why would they have bothered? Also why bother creating something to fight when the PLO were already fighting them? No Israel, the right or the left, never intended to create an organization that would fight them. Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Aug 2014 3.41pm)
When Israel lurches back to the centre/centre-left then things will, hopefully, change in Gaza too eventually re: holding the reins of political power. Israel's extremists and state control oversee almost everything to do with the Palestinians to their detriment and the former seem happy with this unfair and mostly illegal status quo. The criminals in The Knesset do a helluvalot more damage than the criminals in Hamas and they have the Israeli Army at their behest too. If Hamas became peace loving and Israel loving fans tomorrow it would not make one jot of difference to Likud who, let's face it, could dictate the pace of change much more than those in Gaza if they cared to. Edited by Kermit8 (10 Aug 2014 4.36pm)
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| legaleagle 10 Aug 14 4.58pm |
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There was one fundamental difference in S. Africa. Lets not fall into the trap of flying away with comparators. The ANC's aim was a democracy and this was central to its charter throughout. For a vision of apartheid in something more like its S African form than Israel today, see the HAMAS charter and the Muslim Brotherhood's (from which it sprang) strand of sharia law. HAMAS' ideology views the struggle as a religious one, not a nationalist one.Two wrongs don't make a right. Of course Israel changing and booting out Likud would have a massive effect. But don't underestimate the boost that would be given in helping to establish a climate more conducive to this to groups like Peace Now, if the charter was revoked or HAMAS become less predominant in Gaza. Then again, Israel has a lot to do with HAMAS' falling support pre- mid 2014,having risen again.A cynic might venture that the recent conflict has very much benefited HAMAS politically, which might not be totally unconnected with the upsurge in rocket attacks before Israel went in,so Likud etc in turn would up the ante off the scale. nb. Kermit. The Knesset is the whole parliament, including communist and Arab members, not simply just nutters. Edited by legaleagle (10 Aug 2014 5.04pm)
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| susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 12 Aug 14 3.54pm |
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Just for the record:
Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky. |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 12 Aug 14 3.57pm |
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Quote susmik at 12 Aug 2014 3.54pm
Just for the record:
Good to see you posting again BTW.
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| urbreathstinksm8 london 12 Aug 14 10.22pm |
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My empathy for the suffering in Gaza does not make me anti-Semitic, nor does it make me pro-Hamas or anti-Israel. It makes me human.
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The reason for writing it I didn't write it but empathise with the message. Just like most people I'd like to see a peaceful resolution for all.
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| matt_himself Matataland 13 Aug 14 9.01am |
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Quote legaleagle at 09 Aug 2014 11.58am
Agree re not being strong enough in "conventional" military terms to directly challenge Israel in 10 years, but 10 years of mobilising for effective "guerrilla warfare" inside the 1967 boundaries coming from Gaza and the West Bank could be a game changer. viz how effective a force Hezbollah became in Lebanon.. The problem is how would a short-termist right wing government in Israel (would that the Labour Party was in power) sell it to their constituency, having so successfully sought to ramp up public opinion for political ends to date. Edited by legaleagle (09 Aug 2014 12.00pm) Edited by legaleagle (09 Aug 2014 12.07pm)
The 'problem' as you put it is not a 'short termist right wing government in Israel [sic]' selling the Hamas truce to its own people, the problem is that the Hamas 'truce' is bulls***. We have been here before. Many times. Until Hamas starts behaving like a government and treating its own people as people and not human shields/publicity items, it can go f*** itself and expect to be battered by Israel.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| legaleagle 13 Aug 14 9.13am |
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Thank you very much indeed for your kind words. You have completely missed the context in which I was posting. If you actually take the trouble to read the thread over the past two weeks, you will see I have been very critical indeed of HAMAS, its Charter and its own disinclination to seek any long-term accommodation with Israel. There is, quite separate to that, a legitimate discussion to be had about internal politics in Israel (about which no doubt you are an expert) ,the stance of Likud about moving towards towards a two state solution over many years and the difficulties in getting their voting constituency behind any such move at the present time. Those who think HAMAS are the only barrier to an effective solution of the present mess are, in my opinion, as "tunnel visioned" (no pun intended) as those (whom I frequently criticise)who seek to cast the Israeli government as the sole evil in the equation.
Edited by legaleagle (13 Aug 2014 9.22am)
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