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August 25 2019 3.55pm

Can we adopt our 1861 date of birth ?

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View Leicestershireeagle's Profile Leicestershireeagle Flag South Leicestershire 29 Jan 14 1.41pm Send a Private Message to Leicestershireeagle Add Leicestershireeagle as a friend

Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.32pm

Quote Leicestershireeagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.09pm

Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.05pm

If there was a player or member of staff who played for or coached the 'amateur' AND 'pro' team, would that be link enough?

Given that a number of the team played in the First International match ever, and helped to form the first FA Cup, I think we should be recognising what the original team did by putting the original date of formation of Crystal Palace on our badge/shirt.

Given any available information, I can't see any reason why the amateur team should be considered the same club that exists today and was founded in 1905?


Not being rude mate, but where are you getting your information if you didn't know we were one of the FA founding members..?

We weren't, CPFC 1861 were.

I'm digging all over the place at the moment, mainly reaffirming what I already knew/thought. Not being funny, but no one here can recall the gap between the two clubs, so digging around with available information is the best any of us can do. I'm not shamed to say I didn't know that about founding the FA; I don't and won't know everything about this club and never claimed to. I knew they were different entities from word go though, and nothing I can find suggests they should be considered one and the same.


 


RED AND BLUE ARMY!

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View Beastie's Profile Beastie Flag 29 Jan 14 1.43pm Send a Private Message to Beastie Add Beastie as a friend

Quote Leicestershireeagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.23pm

I'm not saying they shouldn't be linked, I'm saying they are not the same entity, and thus we can't claim to have formed in 1861.

Of course but I think it's fair to say the club was re-formed in 1905.

 

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View Tidd99's Profile Tidd99 Flag East Sussex 29 Jan 14 1.46pm Send a Private Message to Tidd99 Add Tidd99 as a friend

I love the idea of linked with the older crystal palace team I think it would be great for the club but not sure what rules govern this whether we can just suddenly declare there history as ours

Edited by Tidd99 (29 Jan 2014 6.24pm)

 


Wilfred Zaha single handedly firing Palace to Wembely!

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View regal_eagle's Profile regal_eagle Flag somewhere 29 Jan 14 6.14pm Send a Private Message to regal_eagle Add regal_eagle as a friend

Quote Leicestershireeagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.41pm

We weren't, CPFC 1861 were.

I'm digging all over the place at the moment, mainly reaffirming what I already knew/thought. Not being funny, but no one here can recall the gap between the two clubs, so digging around with available information is the best any of us can do. I'm not shamed to say I didn't know that about founding the FA; I don't and won't know everything about this club and never claimed to. I knew they were different entities from word go though, and nothing I can find suggests they should be considered one and the same.


From what you've said, and not wanting to start an argument, there are 2 problems with your research LE:
You're being subjective, not objective.
And you haven't even looked at this sites' History section, otherwise you'd have known about Crystal Palace being founder members of the FA.

Any GCSE History student will tell you there are primary, secondary and tertiary forms of evidence, and without first hand evidence of someone playing for both teams, official team sheets and staff member sheets should be assessed..which I doubt you, or any one else for that matter has done, and without that it's all just conjecture, apart from the 2 Facts we have:

1) There WAS a team by the name of Crystal Palace playing in 'our' area from 1861-1876
2) There IS a team by the name of Crystal Palace playing in 'our' area from 1905-2014

Whether or not there is a solid link between the two would require proper investigation, looking at all original documents, not just a quick google/wiki search.

Other teams, for instance Arsenal, have changed their name (originally Dial Square) numerous times, not to mention location and essentially fan-base, whereas we have stayed in the same area and retained the name.

 

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View Tidd99's Profile Tidd99 Flag East Sussex 29 Jan 14 6.22pm Send a Private Message to Tidd99 Add Tidd99 as a friend

Quote Tidd99 at 29 Jan 2014 1.46pm

I love the idea of linked with the older crystal palace team I think it would be great for the club but not sure what rules govern this whether we can just suddenly declare there history as ours


 


Wilfred Zaha single handedly firing Palace to Wembely!

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View adrian b's Profile adrian b Flag Landrindod, Wales 29 Jan 14 6.35pm Send a Private Message to adrian b Add adrian b as a friend

Tyhe problem is there was never a place called Crystal Palace way back in 1860. It was Upper Norwood and the Hyde Park Exhibition was located there once it was dismantled in about 1852. That was called the national exhibition centre. But it did look like a Cystal Palace and so the name then stuck, as The Crystal Palace. The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts. That was Aston Villa, hence the Claret and Blue, but this works teams played in Upper Norwood. No real connection with a team called Crystal Palace. Pity really as 1905 is a late start for such a great club!

 

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View regal_eagle's Profile regal_eagle Flag somewhere 29 Jan 14 6.59pm Send a Private Message to regal_eagle Add regal_eagle as a friend

Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm
The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts.


Is this 'make up history' day or something?

You're nearly there, but not quite right.

 

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View Leicestershireeagle's Profile Leicestershireeagle Flag South Leicestershire 29 Jan 14 7.03pm Send a Private Message to Leicestershireeagle Add Leicestershireeagle as a friend

Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 6.14pm

Quote Leicestershireeagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.41pm

We weren't, CPFC 1861 were.

I'm digging all over the place at the moment, mainly reaffirming what I already knew/thought. Not being funny, but no one here can recall the gap between the two clubs, so digging around with available information is the best any of us can do. I'm not shamed to say I didn't know that about founding the FA; I don't and won't know everything about this club and never claimed to. I knew they were different entities from word go though, and nothing I can find suggests they should be considered one and the same.


From what you've said, and not wanting to start an argument, there are 2 problems with your research LE:
You're being subjective, not objective.
And you haven't even looked at this sites' History section, otherwise you'd have known about Crystal Palace being founder members of the FA.

Any GCSE History student will tell you there are primary, secondary and tertiary forms of evidence, and without first hand evidence of someone playing for both teams, official team sheets and staff member sheets should be assessed..which I doubt you, or any one else for that matter has done, and without that it's all just conjecture, apart from the 2 Facts we have:

1) There WAS a team by the name of Crystal Palace playing in 'our' area from 1861-1876
2) There IS a team by the name of Crystal Palace playing in 'our' area from 1905-2014

Whether or not there is a solid link between the two would require proper investigation, looking at all original documents, not just a quick google/wiki search.

Other teams, for instance Arsenal, have changed their name (originally Dial Square) numerous times, not to mention location and essentially fan-base, whereas we have stayed in the same area and retained the name.

Surely it's subjective to say that there is a link? There is no objective evidence to link the two clubs as a singular entity, and every single source I looked at regards the 1861 CPFC as being defunct, and CPFC 1905 being founded as a separate club. That are the facts that are presently available, and have been for some time. The FA themselves state there are no known links to the current day club.

What I forgot/didn't know/never noticed is irrelevant. Hell if I was trying to come across as a know-it-all, I wouldn't have innocently admitted to not knowing something, would I? My initial post was that they were separate entities, followed by a brief description of the accepted truths, and my acknowledgment about a piece trivia that has passed me by is irrelevant given that that particular trivia is irrelevant in establishing a link, and doesn't undermine the initial statement. Furthermore, it's entirely off topic and doesn't add anything to the discussion relating to the subject matter. I have no problems holding my hands up and saying I didn't know something, but I never claimed to be some sort sage in the history of the club, and merely offered the OP what is currently recognised.

The gap between the two clubs means it's unlikely that there were players across both clubs (1861's team sheets are a little patchy though), and I don't doubt that their MAY be documentation linking the two, but as of what we know, I stand by the accepted view that the two clubs are separate, and we have no claim to an 1861 founding.

 


RED AND BLUE ARMY!

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View Qwijibo's Profile Qwijibo Flag Bournemouth 29 Jan 14 7.37pm Send a Private Message to Qwijibo Add Qwijibo as a friend

[Link]

The FA was formed there on 26 October 1863, a Monday evening. The captains, secretaries and other representatives of a dozen London and suburban clubs playing their own versions of football met “for the purpose of forming an Association with the object of establishing a definite code of rules for the regulation of the game”.

The clubs represented were: Barnes, War Office*, Crusaders, Forest (Leytonstone), No Names (Kilburn), Crystal Palace**, Blackheath, Kensington School, Perceval House (Blackheath), Surbiton, Blackheath Proprietory School and Charterhouse.


**This club has no connection with the present Championship club.

 

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View roman eagle's Profile roman eagle Flag South London 30 Jan 14 12.04pm Send a Private Message to roman eagle Add roman eagle as a friend

I've often wondered if there were any connection between the original and current clubs - a nice little project for someone with time on their hands (not me!). One question though - did the re-formed club have connections to the building itself? Did any of them work there for instance? This would seem to make a kind of link.

 


Audentis fortuna iuvat (Virgil, 19BC)

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View c_block_shedevil's Profile c_block_shedevil Flag London 30 Jan 14 1.33pm Send a Private Message to c_block_shedevil Add c_block_shedevil as a friend

Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm

Tyhe problem is there was never a place called Crystal Palace way back in 1860. It was Upper Norwood and the Hyde Park Exhibition was located there once it was dismantled in about 1852. That was called the national exhibition centre. But it did look like a Cystal Palace and so the name then stuck, as The Crystal Palace. The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts. That was Aston Villa, hence the Claret and Blue, but this works teams played in Upper Norwood. No real connection with a team called Crystal Palace. Pity really as 1905 is a late start for such a great club!


Officially, there is still no place called Crystal Palace! Most of it is Upper Norwood. The rest split between Sydenham and Penge. (Anerley is also not an official area. It is known as Anerley because of the train station - a bit like Upton Park)

 


I'm tough. I'm ambitious. I know exactly what I want. If that makes me a bitch, I'm OK with that.

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View adrian b's Profile adrian b Flag Landrindod, Wales 30 Jan 14 1.45pm Send a Private Message to adrian b Add adrian b as a friend

Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 6.59pm

Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm
The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts.


Is this 'make up history' day or something?

You're nearly there, but not quite right.


From what I've been told by relations and others who had family in the area at the time before the 'fire', The Crystal Palace was the old Empire Exhibition, moved across from Hyde Park after the Great Exhibition in 1850 (51?). When it was decided to move the whole edifice (Prince Albert's concept and love) to Upper Norwood he took his coach to visit it with Victoria and, as it was so far out of London, they had to stop at Crown Point to ask the way!. The work force and maintenance staff came from the Birminbham area and formed their own sports recreation club on the grounds. This was before the Football league set up, but several local clubs, who played each other, had to meet to agree the rules of the particular game they were to compete at. This associatsion of clubs most likely sent delegates to the original meetings of the FA. One local club, Blackheath, were so convinced of their own 'take' on how football should be played, they became on of the founder members of the 'Rugby' version. Teams from the Norwood area, including that playing on the Crystal Palace site, prefered rules more familiar to those of the formimg 'Football League' and if there is any link with the original football club and our present lot, this is it. Oh, and the Claret and Blue (Villa colours) liverage, or does anyone really believe the selection of these colours is also just making it up?

 

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