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Hrolf The Ganger 15 May 19 7.08pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle Where do I say I think people purposely delayed Brexit? I am not saying that at all, Hrolf. I am saying the 2016 vote was a road to nowhere, as it is undeliverable. You cannot blame people for not delivering on something which is undeliverable. The purpose of the 2nd vote is not to have remain win. The purpose of the 2nd vote is to get on a road to somewhere - no deal/norway/mays deal/remain, or whatever it may be. Without a 2nd vote, you and the entire country will be stuck on the road to nowhere for years to come. That is total nonsense. Brexit was deliverable. It was Remainers, especially Teresa May, who ensured that it had no chance from the word go.
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Hrolf The Ganger

15 May 19 7.08pm

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Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Where do I say I think people purposely delayed Brexit?

I am not saying that at all, Hrolf.

I am saying the 2016 vote was a road to nowhere, as it is undeliverable. You cannot blame people for not delivering on something which is undeliverable.

The purpose of the 2nd vote is not to have remain win.

The purpose of the 2nd vote is to get on a road to somewhere - no deal/norway/mays deal/remain, or whatever it may be.

Without a 2nd vote, you and the entire country will be stuck on the road to nowhere for years to come.

That is total nonsense.
Brexit was deliverable. It was Remainers, especially Teresa May, who ensured that it had no chance from the word go.

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DANGERCLOSE London 15 May 19 7.36pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger That is total nonsense. Brexit was deliverable. It was Remainers, especially Teresa May, who ensured that it had no chance from the word go. Agreed
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DANGERCLOSE

London 15 May 19 7.36pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

That is total nonsense.
Brexit was deliverable. It was Remainers, especially Teresa May, who ensured that it had no chance from the word go.

Agreed

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Maine Eagle USA 15 May 19 7.38pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger That is total nonsense. Brexit was deliverable. It was Remainers, especially Teresa May, who ensured that it had no chance from the word go. Lets assume you are correct. If that is correct, do you think Theresa May and the members of parliament will suddenly change their tune en masse and get a no deal (I assume you are not happy with May's soft brexit) through parliament? It is never going to happen. Even a new leader of the tories will not get a no deal exit through parliament. Are you holding out for a general election, sweeping Nigel Farage into No 10?? Trump and Farage, what a thought. No doubt that makes you very excited. Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.
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Maine Eagle

USA 15 May 19 7.38pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

That is total nonsense.
Brexit was deliverable. It was Remainers, especially Teresa May, who ensured that it had no chance from the word go.

Lets assume you are correct.

If that is correct, do you think Theresa May and the members of parliament will suddenly change their tune en masse and get a no deal (I assume you are not happy with May's soft brexit) through parliament?

It is never going to happen.

Even a new leader of the tories will not get a no deal exit through parliament.

Are you holding out for a general election, sweeping Nigel Farage into No 10??

Trump and Farage, what a thought.

No doubt that makes you very excited.

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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DANGERCLOSE London 15 May 19 7.48pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC Your point is what exactly? Would be good if people formulated content they agreed with into thought provoking personal responses that were more than simply repetitive party propaganda (that goes for all sides, TBH) Also, if I've been voted into power by 'the will of the people', then I'm afraid that does kind of create some form of power and authority advantage. Which also means I can take informed decisions that you might disagree with but frankly, as I'm someone with all the facts, and the time to study the pros and cons properly, you can do one or vote me out. This isn't a communist state, and a certain song by the Rolling Stones comes to mind. Unless you're a toddler, in which case I sympathise with your inability to compromise. [Tweet Link]
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DANGERCLOSE

London 15 May 19 7.48pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Your point is what exactly?

Would be good if people formulated content they agreed with into thought provoking personal responses that were more than simply repetitive party propaganda (that goes for all sides, TBH)

Also, if I've been voted into power by 'the will of the people', then I'm afraid that does kind of create some form of power and authority advantage. Which also means I can take informed decisions that you might disagree with but frankly, as I'm someone with all the facts, and the time to study the pros and cons properly, you can do one or vote me out.

This isn't a communist state, and a certain song by the Rolling Stones comes to mind. Unless you're a toddler, in which case I sympathise with your inability to compromise.

[Tweet Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 15 May 19 7.49pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle Lets assume you are correct. If that is correct, do you think Theresa May and the members of parliament will suddenly change their tune en masse and get a no deal (I assume you are not happy with May's soft brexit) through parliament? It is never going to happen. Even a new leader of the tories will not get a no deal exit through parliament. Are you holding out for a general election, sweeping Nigel Farage into No 10?? Trump and Farage, what a thought. No doubt that makes you very excited. I am sure that no deal will be better than no Brexit going forward. The resentment felt by Leavers will echo for decades if the referendum is not honored. What if Leave were to win a second referendum?
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Hrolf The Ganger

15 May 19 7.49pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Lets assume you are correct.

It is never going to happen.

Even a new leader of the tories will not get a no deal exit through parliament.

Are you holding out for a general election, sweeping Nigel Farage into No 10??

Trump and Farage, what a thought.

No doubt that makes you very excited.

I am sure that no deal will be better than no Brexit going forward. The resentment felt by Leavers will echo for decades if the referendum is not honored.

What if Leave were to win a second referendum?

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Matov 15 May 19 8.04pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I am sure that no deal will be better than no Brexit going forward. The resentment felt by Leavers will echo for decades if the referendum is not honored. Absolutely. This is where I struggle to comprehend anybody still bleating on about 'Remain'. It is done and dusted. We voted Leave on June 23rd 2016. No ifs, no buts. There is no healing. There is no unifying. Already our claims to be a democracy are becoming more farcical by the day because we should have left on March 29th. If A50 is revoked then this does not just go away. Brexit will not be allowed to wither in the corner. It becomes the defining issue for any and every election to come for decades. There is no return to the status quo. We have to leave in a meaningful way. Once out, then a camapign to rejoin has a genuine political legitimacy but this Remain stuff is seriously sinister. Dangerous in fact. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

15 May 19 8.04pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I am sure that no deal will be better than no Brexit going forward. The resentment felt by Leavers will echo for decades if the referendum is not honored.

Absolutely. This is where I struggle to comprehend anybody still bleating on about 'Remain'. It is done and dusted. We voted Leave on June 23rd 2016. No ifs, no buts.

There is no healing. There is no unifying. Already our claims to be a democracy are becoming more farcical by the day because we should have left on March 29th.

If A50 is revoked then this does not just go away. Brexit will not be allowed to wither in the corner. It becomes the defining issue for any and every election to come for decades. There is no return to the status quo.

We have to leave in a meaningful way. Once out, then a camapign to rejoin has a genuine political legitimacy but this Remain stuff is seriously sinister. Dangerous in fact.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Maine Eagle USA 15 May 19 8.11pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I am sure that no deal will be better than no Brexit going forward. The resentment felt by Leavers will echo for decades if the referendum is not honored. What if Leave were to win a second referendum? And for every person that thinks that way, there is 1, or possibly more than 1 person in England, who disagrees, and does not believe no deal is better than no brexit. We dont know how many people are in each camp, because a "no deal" brexit has never been voted on. I agree that if Brexit is cancelled the brexiteers will be mighty angry, and with good reason. That doesnt change anything about being at an impasse/road to nowehere currently though. We have to get on a road to somewhere, wherever the final destination is. If Brexit is cancelled for sure a very serious and thorough analysis of our place in the EU, and how things may need to change within that framework needs to be conducted. You are not getting the point here, Hrolf. A "Stay" or "Leave" 2 choice binary referendum is why we are in this almighty mess. "Leave" cannot win a 2nd referendum as "Leave the EU" will not be on a 2nd referendum. How we leave the EU, will be on a 2nd referendum. However if for arguments sake, a no deal brexit wins the 2nd vote, that will be implemented, as the whole point of a second vote is to have implementable options, which are per-authorised by parliament. This was the failure of the 2016 vote. To be fair to the people putting the vote together though, so, so much was unknown in 2016 about the entire concept of Brexit. So much more is now known in 2019 than was in 2016, which is yet another reason to hold a 2nd vote, EVEN if it wasnt the only way out of the quagmire, which it also is. That is 2 pretty big reasons. Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.
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Maine Eagle

USA 15 May 19 8.11pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I am sure that no deal will be better than no Brexit going forward. The resentment felt by Leavers will echo for decades if the referendum is not honored.

What if Leave were to win a second referendum?

And for every person that thinks that way, there is 1, or possibly more than 1 person in England, who disagrees, and does not believe no deal is better than no brexit. We dont know how many people are in each camp, because a "no deal" brexit has never been voted on.

I agree that if Brexit is cancelled the brexiteers will be mighty angry, and with good reason. That doesnt change anything about being at an impasse/road to nowehere currently though. We have to get on a road to somewhere, wherever the final destination is.

If Brexit is cancelled for sure a very serious and thorough analysis of our place in the EU, and how things may need to change within that framework needs to be conducted.

You are not getting the point here, Hrolf.

A "Stay" or "Leave" 2 choice binary referendum is why we are in this almighty mess. "Leave" cannot win a 2nd referendum as "Leave the EU" will not be on a 2nd referendum.

How we leave the EU, will be on a 2nd referendum.

However if for arguments sake, a no deal brexit wins the 2nd vote, that will be implemented, as the whole point of a second vote is to have implementable options, which are per-authorised by parliament.

This was the failure of the 2016 vote. To be fair to the people putting the vote together though, so, so much was unknown in 2016 about the entire concept of Brexit.

So much more is now known in 2019 than was in 2016, which is yet another reason to hold a 2nd vote, EVEN if it wasnt the only way out of the quagmire, which it also is. That is 2 pretty big reasons.

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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Hrolf The Ganger 15 May 19 8.28pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle And for every person that thinks that way, there is 1, or possibly more than 1 person in England, who disagrees, and does not believe no deal is better than no brexit. We dont know how many people are in each camp, because a "no deal" brexit has never been voted on. I agree that if Brexit is cancelled the brexiteers will be mighty angry, and with good reason. That doesnt change anything about being at an impasse/road to nowehere currently though. We have to get on a road to somewhere, wherever the final destination is. If Brexit is cancelled for sure a very serious and thorough analysis of our place in the EU, and how things may need to change within that framework needs to be conducted. You are not getting the point here, Hrolf. A "Stay" or "Leave" 2 choice binary referendum is why we are in this almighty mess. "Leave" cannot win a 2nd referendum as "Leave the EU" will not be on a 2nd referendum. How we leave the EU, will be on a 2nd referendum. However if for arguments sake, a no deal brexit wins the 2nd vote, that will be implemented, as the whole point of a second vote is to have implementable options, which are per-authorised by parliament. This was the failure of the 2016 vote. To be fair to the people putting the vote together though, so, so much was unknown in 2016 about the entire concept of Brexit. So much more is now known in 2019 than was in 2016, which is yet another reason to hold a 2nd vote, EVEN if it wasnt the only way out of the quagmire, which it also is. That is 2 pretty big reasons. The fact that there is a split in opinion is exactly why Brexit will not just go away. This is not just some fanatical minority that craves leaving Europe this is half the country. You cannot have a vote that splits Leavers for obvious reasons if one of the options is Remain. You would like that, wouldn't you? That is why it was a binary choice in the first place.
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Hrolf The Ganger

15 May 19 8.28pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

If Brexit is cancelled for sure a very serious and thorough analysis of our place in the EU, and how things may need to change within that framework needs to be conducted.

You are not getting the point here, Hrolf.

A "Stay" or "Leave" 2 choice binary referendum is why we are in this almighty mess. "Leave" cannot win a 2nd referendum as "Leave the EU" will not be on a 2nd referendum.

How we leave the EU, will be on a 2nd referendum.

This was the failure of the 2016 vote. To be fair to the people putting the vote together though, so, so much was unknown in 2016 about the entire concept of Brexit.

So much more is now known in 2019 than was in 2016, which is yet another reason to hold a 2nd vote, EVEN if it wasnt the only way out of the quagmire, which it also is. That is 2 pretty big reasons.

The fact that there is a split in opinion is exactly why Brexit will not just go away. This is not just some fanatical minority that craves leaving Europe this is half the country.

You cannot have a vote that splits Leavers for obvious reasons if one of the options is Remain.
You would like that, wouldn't you?

That is why it was a binary choice in the first place.

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Matov 15 May 19 8.29pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle . However if for arguments sake, a no deal brexit wins the 2nd vote, that will be implemented, as the whole point of a second vote is to have implementable options, which are per-authorised by parliament. This was the failure of the 2016 vote. To be fair to the people putting the vote together though, so, so much was unknown in 2016 about the entire concept of Brexit. So much more is now known in 2019 than was in 2016, which is yet another reason to hold a 2nd vote, EVEN if it wasnt the only way out of the quagmire, which it also is. That is 2 pretty big reasons. Sorry but this is BS. Leaving the EU meant leaving the EU. The single market and the customs union are institutions of the EU. Therefore if we leave, we are no longer in either. That was a fact on June 23rd 2016 and remains a fact today. And almost nobody seriously pushing for a second vote is advocating there being no 'Remain' option. If a second vote was to be held strictly along the lines of either May's deal or no deal, then perhaps there might be a case for it but lets be frank about this. 99% of those wanting another vote are doing so because they want to reverse the leave decision reached on the 23.6.2016. Edited by Matov (15 May 2019 8.32pm) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

15 May 19 8.29pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

This was the failure of the 2016 vote. To be fair to the people putting the vote together though, so, so much was unknown in 2016 about the entire concept of Brexit.

So much more is now known in 2019 than was in 2016, which is yet another reason to hold a 2nd vote, EVEN if it wasnt the only way out of the quagmire, which it also is. That is 2 pretty big reasons.

Sorry but this is BS. Leaving the EU meant leaving the EU. The single market and the customs union are institutions of the EU. Therefore if we leave, we are no longer in either. That was a fact on June 23rd 2016 and remains a fact today.

And almost nobody seriously pushing for a second vote is advocating there being no 'Remain' option. If a second vote was to be held strictly along the lines of either May's deal or no deal, then perhaps there might be a case for it but lets be frank about this. 99% of those wanting another vote are doing so because they want to reverse the leave decision reached on the 23.6.2016.

Edited by Matov (15 May 2019 8.32pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Maine Eagle USA 15 May 19 8.46pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger The fact that there is a split in opinion is exactly why Brexit will not just go away. This is not just some fanatical minority that craves leaving Europe this is half the country. You cannot have a vote that splits Leavers for obvious reasons if one of the options is Remain. You would like that, wouldn't you? That is why it was a binary choice in the first place. As I said above I agree Brexit will not just go away. Those issues need to be addressed, whatever happens. The binary choice is a road to nowhere, which after 3 years is right where things are currently. I get your point re the vote counting, but it doesnt change the fact that the 2016 vote will not lead to a solution which is implementable. I like the fact that you are admitting there are split opinions on how to leave the EU. Is it fair to someone who voted to leave the EU with no deal, to give them May's deal therefore? Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.
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Maine Eagle

USA 15 May 19 8.46pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

The fact that there is a split in opinion is exactly why Brexit will not just go away. This is not just some fanatical minority that craves leaving Europe this is half the country.

You cannot have a vote that splits Leavers for obvious reasons if one of the options is Remain.
You would like that, wouldn't you?

That is why it was a binary choice in the first place.

As I said above I agree Brexit will not just go away. Those issues need to be addressed, whatever happens.

The binary choice is a road to nowhere, which after 3 years is right where things are currently.

I get your point re the vote counting, but it doesnt change the fact that the 2016 vote will not lead to a solution which is implementable.

I like the fact that you are admitting there are split opinions on how to leave the EU. Is it fair to someone who voted to leave the EU with no deal, to give them May's deal therefore?

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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Maine Eagle USA 15 May 19 8.56pm
Originally posted by Matov Sorry but this is BS. Leaving the EU meant leaving the EU. The single market and the customs union are institutions of the EU. Therefore if we leave, we are no longer in either. That was a fact on June 23rd 2016 and remains a fact today. And almost nobody seriously pushing for a second vote is advocating there being no 'Remain' option. If a second vote was to be held strictly along the lines of either May's deal or no deal, then perhaps there might be a case for it but lets be frank about this. 99% of those wanting another vote are doing so because they want to reverse the leave decision reached on the 23.6.2016. Edited by Matov (15 May 2019 8.32pm) I agree 100% that voting for Brexit was almost certainly a vote to leave the single market and customs union. There were some people stating otherwise but in general I agree with that. As it gets more palatable for parliament, May's deal gets softer and softer, and it may well end up with a customs union. If Labour was in power, the deal would have a customs union in it. Given that fact, and that no deal will not be approved by parliament, you are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place eh. As I keep saying, whilst imperfect, a 2nd vote is at least one way out of this s***show. Voting on May's deal or no deal would be something, but I dont know if not giving people a chance to change their minds on leaving at all, if you are going to the trouble of having a new vote, makes a lot of sense. Betraying democracy could be cried at that one, just as much as those who believe the 2016 vote meant no deal, norway, or something else. I guess in the same token - 99% of brexiteers opposed to a new vote are worried that public opinion has changed due to certain lies being exposed (350 mil for the NHS) and certain economic issues (Car manufactures/British Steel) making people think twice. Its a pickle for sure. Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.
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Maine Eagle

USA 15 May 19 8.56pm

Originally posted by Matov

Sorry but this is BS. Leaving the EU meant leaving the EU. The single market and the customs union are institutions of the EU. Therefore if we leave, we are no longer in either. That was a fact on June 23rd 2016 and remains a fact today.

And almost nobody seriously pushing for a second vote is advocating there being no 'Remain' option. If a second vote was to be held strictly along the lines of either May's deal or no deal, then perhaps there might be a case for it but lets be frank about this. 99% of those wanting another vote are doing so because they want to reverse the leave decision reached on the 23.6.2016.

Edited by Matov (15 May 2019 8.32pm)

I agree 100% that voting for Brexit was almost certainly a vote to leave the single market and customs union. There were some people stating otherwise but in general I agree with that.

As it gets more palatable for parliament, May's deal gets softer and softer, and it may well end up with a customs union.

If Labour was in power, the deal would have a customs union in it.

Given that fact, and that no deal will not be approved by parliament, you are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place eh.

As I keep saying, whilst imperfect, a 2nd vote is at least one way out of this s***show.

Voting on May's deal or no deal would be something, but I dont know if not giving people a chance to change their minds on leaving at all, if you are going to the trouble of having a new vote, makes a lot of sense. Betraying democracy could be cried at that one, just as much as those who believe the 2016 vote meant no deal, norway, or something else.

I guess in the same token - 99% of brexiteers opposed to a new vote are worried that public opinion has changed due to certain lies being exposed (350 mil for the NHS) and certain economic issues (Car manufactures/British Steel) making people think twice.

Its a pickle for sure.

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 15 May 19 9.09pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle If thats too complicated, then winner takes all is kinda simple eh (most votes wins). However even someone pretty f*ing dumb, Jimenez, can rank options in order of preference. Even a complete raving f*ing imbecile, can do that, cant they? Here is an example, where 1 is your first choice, and you find 5 the least desirable: 1 Having your nuts sanded down with 40 grit sandpaper 2 Listening to Janet Street-Porter sing jazz classics 3 Nuclear Holocaust 4 Brighton winning the champions league 5 Trump presidency And so on... As I said, it aint perfect, but Brexit is a bit more complicated than in or out, as you may have noticed in the last 3 years. Erm, you mean like in the last vote perchance!! Pro USA & Israel
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Jimenez

SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 15 May 19 9.09pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

If thats too complicated, then winner takes all is kinda simple eh (most votes wins).

However even someone pretty f***ing dumb, Jimenez, can rank options in order of preference. Even a complete raving f***ing imbecile, can do that, cant they?

Here is an example, where 1 is your first choice, and you find 5 the least desirable:

1 Having your nuts sanded down with 40 grit sandpaper
2 Listening to Janet Street-Porter sing jazz classics
3 Nuclear Holocaust
4 Brighton winning the champions league
5 Trump presidency

And so on...

As I said, it aint perfect, but Brexit is a bit more complicated than in or out, as you may have noticed in the last 3 years.

Erm, you mean like in the last vote perchance!!

Pro USA & Israel

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