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May 26 2019 10.08pm

The Brexit Thread

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View cpfc_chap's Profile cpfc_chap Flag koh samui 16 May 19 6.49am Send a Private Message to cpfc_chap Add cpfc_chap as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I just watched a video of Martin Lewis on "Politics Live". I haven't seen the whole show.

The sound bite that was headlined came from him and I think it succinctly sums up the reason why such a huge divide in opinions exists.

He said "Brexit does not mean the same thing to everyone who voted to leave. We had a black and white vote on a rainbow of issues".

As this is pretty much what I have said before I, of course, agree with him. He just puts it much better and in a way that's easy to understand.

That there are some, including many who post here, see it in black and white terms doesn't mean that all, or indeed many, leave voters see it that way.

What Brexit actually means varies a lot between people. That much must be obvious just from reading this long thread.

That includes all of those who voted to Remain but accepts they were outvoted, like many of the MPs.

Compromise is needed. What are people willing to accept? How do we find that out? The EU elections will be no guide. They will just provide a platform for the headbangers.

That rainbow as you call it should get the brexit it asked for then no deal wto!

 

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View dannyboy1978's Profile dannyboy1978 Flag 16 May 19 6.50am Send a Private Message to dannyboy1978 Add dannyboy1978 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I just watched a video of Martin Lewis on "Politics Live". I haven't seen the whole show.

The sound bite that was headlined came from him and I think it succinctly sums up the reason why such a huge divide in opinions exists.

He said "Brexit does not mean the same thing to everyone who voted to leave. We had a black and white vote on a rainbow of issues".

As this is pretty much what I have said before I, of course, agree with him. He just puts it much better and in a way that's easy to understand.

That there are some, including many who post here, see it in black and white terms doesn't mean that all, or indeed many, leave voters see it that way.

What Brexit actually means varies a lot between people. That much must be obvious just from reading this long thread.

That includes all of those who voted to Remain but accepts they were outvoted, like many of the MPs.

Compromise is needed. What are people willing to accept? How do we find that out? The EU elections will be no guide. They will just provide a platform for the headbangers.

Would there have been compromise if remain won? You lost get over it move out the way and let brexit happen.

 

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View dannyboy1978's Profile dannyboy1978 Flag 16 May 19 6.53am Send a Private Message to dannyboy1978 Add dannyboy1978 as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Actually there was, Matov.

Triggering article 50 means you enter into negotiations on a withdrawal agreement or the so called "deal". That was written into the process many years ago.

Lots of people on the leave side said how easy it would be get a deal etc etc, so I dont agree with you there.

You speak of democracy, but you know very well that there is no way on earth all 17 plus million people voted for Brexit thinking it meant a no deal exit.

Lets say half didnt, that means a massive majority on June 23rd was NOT in favor of a no deal brexit.

Therein lies the rub.

That is the issue with your proposal to simply effect a no deal brexit asap and be done with it. If you want to hold democratic ideals in high regard on one hand, you cannot cast them aside on the other hand: No deal has not been voted for by the English people.

In a 2nd referendum, that idea can be voted upon, to see how much support it truly has.

And we still believe we can do a deal if we bloody leave. There is no deal whilst we still have one foot in.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 16 May 19 7.03am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle


The sound bite that was headlined came from him and I think it succinctly sums up the reason why such a huge divide in opinions exists.

He said "Brexit does not mean the same thing to everyone who voted to leave. We had a black and white vote on a rainbow of issues".

As this is pretty much what I have said before I, of course, agree with him. He just puts it much better and in a way that's easy to understand.

That there are some, including many who post here, see it in black and white terms doesn't mean that all, or indeed many, leave voters see it that way.

What Brexit actually means varies a lot between people. That much must be obvious just from reading this long thread.

That includes all of those who voted to Remain but accepts they were outvoted, like many of the MPs.

All rather lovely sentiments but campaigners for a second referendum all seem pretty insistent on 'Remain' featuring a second time around.

If all the pressure was for a vote on the terms and conditions of our departure i.e choosing between May's deal or a WTO Brexit, there might be a case to put. Not sure I would agree with it but asking the populace for what shade of Leave they wanted could have some democratic justification. There could be an argument to be made for putting that choice back to the British people.

But it is not. All of the noise about a second referendum comes from people who voted Remain first time around and now somehow feel they are justified in having a second go.

Remain lost on June 23rd. That is it. There can be no 'compromise' around that that does not potentially fatally undermine the trust that people have to hold in the process if they are to vote for anything in good faith ever again. And it is that pretty basic truth that I am shocked many Remainers seem so indifferent to. The Leave/Remain issue is done and dusted. That happened back in 2016.

 

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 16 May 19 8.40am Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

I love your idea of getting your excuses out before the elections have even taken place

Headbanger here who is willing compromise as long as we can take back our sovereignty and control our own borders and are free to make our own trade deals

Same here. Problem is, we wonít be able to have all 3 and weíll probably have to be part of the customs union. Iíve lost track of it now but a few weeks ago it felt like it was control of immigration or free from the customs union, but not both.

 


COYP

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe 16 May 19 10.52am Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Fall out is definitely a concern, but the current situation has to be resolved one way or the other, Matov.

Currently we are traipsing along the road to nowhere.

A second vote provides a road to somewhere. Then people can begin to learn to accept that final destination, wherever it may be.

The proper and full grieving process can begin for the remainers, if we leave. They can learn to get by in the new normal, given enough time. They might even learn to accept the economic downturn that will probably come, but those who lose their own jobs or houses might struggle to be at peace with Brexit, if that is what takes place.

On the flip side, to the people who are unhappy with their lot in life, and have come to regard EU membership as the dragon that must be slain to allow them to resolve the issues that pain them so badly. To move upwards, be happier, have more money and freedom, see less foreigners in England, achieve "sovereignty" or whatever else they dreamt brexit would bring, would have to look elsewhere for that silver bullet.

They would be just as bitter as the man who loses his job and house due to a no deal exit, but perhaps maintaining status quo with EU membership is less likely to cause widespread economic turmoil?

Time heals all, Matov. As raw as everything is now, over the years the fires will burn down to embers, but never go out completely.

Whichever way it goes, some future politician is going to campaign on a reversal.

If it is a no deal brexit, then I will accept that as would anyone who is being reasonable at this stage. Like I said above though, having not voted for it, if it causes a huge recession and people lose jobs and houses, they would be pretty pissed off I would imagine, wouldn't you?

I wont apologize for suggesting a way out of this deadlock.

What is your idea to resolve the current impasse, out of interest?

Violence, last time I checked

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 May 19 11.35am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

Our entire system of Governance would be potentially fatally undermined for decades to come and I genuinely fear what might lay on the other side.

Our entire system of governance is vested in Parliament and this deep seated idea that any referendum is part of it needs to be eradicated from the thinking. The first referendum was only important because Parliament undertook to respect it. If there were to be another it would not be a re-run of the first. It would seek to identify what kind of Brexit people want, once the various options are established, or whether in the light of updated knowledge they now want to stay in. Parliament would then have to decide how to respond to the result.

The situation is that we need to leave ASAP. Without a deal since there clearly is not an acceptable one on offer, as matters stand. And the vote on June 23rd was not predecated with a requirement for there to be one.

No we don't. Parliament needs to do it's duty and continue to try to come to a conclusion that a majority there can accept.

What I struggle to get my head around is that any reasonable thinking person, who proclaims themselves in anyway in favour of democracy, can believe that re-running a vote because you don't like the outcome can lead to anything other than utter mayhem.

Then you need to re-think how British democracy actually works. Referendums have no role in it. As I stated above if there was to be a second consultative referendum it would NOT be a "re-run". It would be a new question in a new set of circumstances.

And not show any contrition in pushing such a POV.

Why should anyone need to feel contrition for pointing out the truth?

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 16 May 19 11.41am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Then you need to re-think how British democracy actually works. Referendums have no role in it. As I stated above if there was to be a second consultative referendum it would NOT be a "re-run". It would be a new question in a new set of circumstances.


So referendums have no role if you don't like the outcome but you still want a second one anyway, in the hope that this time you do get the outcome you want?

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 May 19 11.44am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Londoners had pride in their history and culture as well which is why they are slightly miffed in Newham where they now represent 16% of the population. But then one group of people arenít malicious and the others are apparently a bunch of raving fascists.

Everybody living in Newham is a Londoner! They just don't all have deep roots there yet. The native born Cornish welcome everyone. There is a long tradition of migrant workers here in the farming industry so perhaps that helps. The difference maybe is that the migrants here mostly have whitish skins and go to Churches and not to Mosques.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 May 19 11.48am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov


So referendums have no role if you don't like the outcome but you still want a second one anyway, in the hope that this time you do get the outcome you want?

Did you read what I wrote?

It has nothing to do with re-running the first just to try to get a different result. Until you can start to understand that you are likely to be bitter and twisted.

I actually don't want another referendum because I don't want ANY referendums to be held. I want Parliament to do it's job, take responsibility and do what it believes is in our best interests and not just follow popular opinion.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 May 19 11.55am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by dannyboy1978

Would there have been compromise if remain won? You lost get over it move out the way and let brexit happen.

If we had voted to remain by a small margin Parliament's hand would have been strengthened in any future attempts to achieve the reforms needed with the EU and in negotiating future opt outs.

So whilst no formal compromise would have happened because the status quo would have prevailed it would have had consequences.

As would us deciding to remain now because we would only do so on the basis that EU reform is placed on the agenda.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 16 May 19 12.01pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

If we had voted to remain by a small margin Parliament's hand would have been strengthened in any future attempts to achieve the reforms needed with the EU and in negotiating future opt outs.

So whilst no formal compromise would have happened because the status quo would have prevailed it would have had consequences.

As would us deciding to remain now because we would only do so on the basis that EU reform is placed on the agenda.

What EU reform would you like to see? What EU reform is so important? Would us Remaining be conditional on these reforms or should we only ask nicely?

Oddly enough I would prefer the Government to look us in the eye and revoke A50 rather than go through the farce of a second referendum as well. Not that it would stop the s***-storm that will follow but at least they would have shown some balls for once.

Stab us in the chest, rather than the back.

I actually think that now the only Parliamentary way out of this current impasse is a straight forward leave with no deal or revoke vote. Let us see MP's actually make the only real choice on the table.

Whatever follows, at least we will know where we all stand with our current generation of politicians.

 

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