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April 28 2024 10.08pm

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Sep 19 9.07am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

As well as the wishes of the constituents who voted for them (cue more blather about MPs not being delegates)

It's not "blather"!

You might not like it. You might not even understand it. You might not accept it.

But it IS a fact.

MPs don't act just for those constituents who voted for them. They act for everyone in their constituency, all who voted, all who didn't and all who couldn't. They do so by using their conscience to decide what is in their best interests.

The time will arrive when you too are very glad that this is our system and not the one you seem to think it is. We won't always have a right wing Tory government.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View DANGERCLOSE's Profile DANGERCLOSE Flag london 10 Sep 19 9.59am Send a Private Message to DANGERCLOSE Add DANGERCLOSE as a friend

The state of the labour party

 

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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 10 Sep 19 10.17am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't know how many times I need to say this but we don't elect delegates we elect representatives.

You are quoting someone who lived 250 years ago in a time when not many people actually had the vote and when MPs rode to the House of Commons on horseback wearing a sword.

Times change and nowadays people vote for an MP not because he's a good bloke and an original thinker but because he's a member of a particular party and is therefore expected to vote in accordance with the party manifesto

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 10 Sep 19 10.32am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

You are quoting someone who lived 250 years ago in a time when not many people actually had the vote and when MPs rode to the House of Commons on horseback wearing a sword.

Times change and nowadays people vote for an MP not because he's a good bloke and an original thinker but because he's a member of a particular party and is therefore expected to vote in accordance with the party manifesto

Burke had an idealised version of parliament (nothing wrong in that) it never existed.

As you say in his day a tiny proportion of the population had a vote and many of them sold that to the highest bidder. The MPs didn't even represent anyone as the constituencies were hopelessly out of kilter with the population. Old Sarum which is a hill outside of Salisbury and used to be a pre Roman fort had 1 MP I think Manchester had none.

As for political parties well they had the Whigs and the Tories but these were loose alliances and MPs gravitated to individuals rather than formal parties. So Burke and James Fox both had their followers.

The government ruled by handing out no show jobs (sinecures)monopolies and out right bribes.

For all its faults Parliament is a little better today (just a little).

 


One more point

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Sep 19 10.44am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

You are quoting someone who lived 250 years ago in a time when not many people actually had the vote and when MPs rode to the House of Commons on horseback wearing a sword.

Times change and nowadays people vote for an MP not because he's a good bloke and an original thinker but because he's a member of a particular party and is therefore expected to vote in accordance with the party manifesto

The principle first espoused by Edmund Burke holds good today, despite your, and other's wishes to change it. A change that ultimately would harm each and everyone of us, so "be careful what you wish for". As Simon Jordan wished he had remembered!

It was a principle reiterated by Churchill and subsequently by many great Parliamentarians.

That you "expect" your MP to always vote along party lines does not mean they have any obligation at all to do so. There might be consequences for them later, but that's another issue.

If you don't believe me then try reading this:-

[Link]

and if you want an MP's view this:-

[Link]

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View DANGERCLOSE's Profile DANGERCLOSE Flag london 10 Sep 19 2.34pm Send a Private Message to DANGERCLOSE Add DANGERCLOSE as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That's of course true, but it's true whether we do a deal now or later. The point I was making was whether the EU would be more, or less, inclined to offer favourable terms if we left without a deal and caused everyone problems as a consequence.

Right now our leverage on that is that we can ensure there is a peaceful, ordered transition. Later we don't have that but would have a legacy of causing headaches and a mess of paperwork and costs

[Link]

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 10 Sep 19 2.40pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

You are quoting someone who lived 250 years ago in a time when not many people actually had the vote and when MPs rode to the House of Commons on horseback wearing a sword.

Times change and nowadays people vote for an MP not because he's a good bloke and an original thinker but because he's a member of a particular party and is therefore expected to vote in accordance with the party manifesto

He knew his father.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 10 Sep 19 2.54pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

You are quoting someone who lived 250 years ago in a time when not many people actually had the vote and when MPs rode to the House of Commons on horseback wearing a sword.

Times change and nowadays people vote for an MP not because he's a good bloke and an original thinker but because he's a member of a particular party and is therefore expected to vote in accordance with the party manifesto

Funny how people can be very particular about manifestos when it suits them - Lib Dem in 2010 for example and then not Labour and Conservatives in 2017 accepting the referendum result.

 

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 10 Sep 19 2.55pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

He knew his father.

All Burke's.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 10 Sep 19 2.55pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Labour's Harriet Harman to run for Commons Speaker?

She's having a laugh.

They need someone who can run the job without fear or favour and who stays out of politics and grandstanding......Like a good teacher whose students never learn his/hers politics.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 10 Sep 19 2.56pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by chris123

All Burke's.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Flag The garden of England.(not really) 10 Sep 19 3.00pm Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't know how many times I need to say this but we don't elect delegates we elect representatives.

MPs are not party delegates. They don't have to endorse the line held by the majority of their members. That's the attitude adopted by the Labour party and it's as wrong for them as it is for the Tories and should it ever become accepted it would be the end of Parliamentary democracy as we know it. We might then just as well send voting machines to the House of Commons and leave all the decision making to party conferences.

For the smooth running of Government most MPs will, most of the time, follow the directions given to them by their party, via the whips. The important thing though to realise is that they do so not by law, but by convention. The choice of whether to obey the whip is their's, and their's alone, to make.

At all times their duty is to obey their conscience when deciding what is in the best interests of ALL their constituents, and not just those who voted for them, and the country as a whole. If that sometimes brings them into conflict with official party policy then so be it. I would rather live under a system in which we are governed by people free to express themselves at all times, than risk a situation in which the party machine can be usurped to produce a form of neo-dictatorship.

The party system only exists to allow people with sufficiently similar views to come together to form a government. It does not over-ride the duties and rights of any individual MP.

Parliament's job is to give us what they believe we need and not to give us what we want and, even more importantly, what just some of us want. If they can see that events have moved sufficiently far from the situation that existed in 2016 that a new look is now appropriate, then that's not only their right but also their duty to act. That some don't like it, because it doesn't suit their personal opinion, is a given, but that doesn't mean that they are acting incorrectly.

They nearly all promised to honour the result of the referendum though......so they may not be delegates BUT they nearly all LIED.....never mind wisbech your man Corbyn will put everything right...

 

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