The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In | RSS Feed
 npn  Crowborough 02 Mar 17 8.46am |
  |
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Kermit8
I think the idea is if we show some goodwill and take the high ground by allowing settled families, some with kids who have known only the UK for friends and school, and others who have made the UK their home to stay then future negotiations may not be so bitter. Doesn't appeal to the Hard Brexiteers of course but then nothing short of us being super-rich and foreigner-free and the rest of Europe being driven into destitution will. That's crazy negotiating tactics, though. If you have something the other party wants, and they have something you want, you negotiate a reciprocal agreement, you don't enshrine into law that you will give them what they want regardless - then there's simply nothing you have to offer them to get the reciprocal part (and you end up giving ground elsewhere). I'm all for the rights of EU citizens currently here and UK citizens currently there, and would be happy to reach that agreement now for the sake of the security of all concerned (of course the EU will refuse to do that until article 50 is invoked, so we have to wait until then)
|
|
 Alert a moderator to this post |
 |
| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 02 Mar 17 8.48am |
|
|---|---|
|
I wonder how many people who bemoan foreign workers thought Auf Weidersein Pet was a great programme.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 02 Mar 17 8.58am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by npn
That's crazy negotiating tactics, though. If you have something the other party wants, and they have something you want, you negotiate a reciprocal agreement, you don't enshrine into law that you will give them what they want regardless - then there's simply nothing you have to offer them to get the reciprocal part (and you end up giving ground elsewhere). I'm all for the rights of EU citizens currently here and UK citizens currently there, and would be happy to reach that agreement now for the sake of the security of all concerned (of course the EU will refuse to do that until article 50 is invoked, so we have to wait until then) This "issue" is not high up the list on EU's negotiating wish list. The vast majority of UK migrants to other EU countries are high skilled workers or retirees who spend money and pay taxes in those countries. Spain, Italy and France won't want to get rid of Brits living in their countries so affording them the same rights that we guarantee their nationals before even coming to the table, will be straightforward. It may even buy us a bit of goodwill, something in extremely short supply among the other EU nations who, let's face it, are in a much stronger bargaining position than us anyway. More importantly though, people are not bargaining chips and the Government's thinly veiled threats to use them as such is deplorable.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Kermit8  Hevon 02 Mar 17 8.58am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by npn
That's crazy negotiating tactics, though. If you have something the other party wants, and they have something you want, you negotiate a reciprocal agreement, you don't enshrine into law that you will give them what they want regardless - then there's simply nothing you have to offer them to get the reciprocal part (and you end up giving ground elsewhere). I'm all for the rights of EU citizens currently here and UK citizens currently there, and would be happy to reach that agreement now for the sake of the security of all concerned (of course the EU will refuse to do that until article 50 is invoked, so we have to wait until then) But it's not another 'party' is it? It's 27 parties. I'm all for the olive branch. If one of them doesn't take it any law can be repealed or a new one introduced specifically to address a single irritation. If we go in hard and all billy big bollocks it will backfire spectacularly. The other 27 together will make mincemeat of us.
Big chest and massive boobs |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| npn Crowborough 02 Mar 17 9.05am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Kermit8
But it's not another 'party' is it? It's 27 parties. I'm all for the olive branch. If one of them doesn't take it any law can be repealed or a new one introduced specifically to address a single irritation. If we go in hard and all billy big bollocks it will backfire spectacularly. The other 27 together will make mincemeat of us. They are already playing hardball, and seem to wish to make the process as hard for the UK as possible to discourage others flying the nest. We will get no favours in this negotiation (they can't afford to, or there will be a flood of other nations leaving and the whole thing will disintegrate), and far from using people as bargaining chips, not guaranteeing EU rights without a reciprocal agreement is protecting UK citizens living in the EU. You are right, of course, that we could repeal the law later, but why enshrine it now? Seems totally pointless - either reach an agreement now (the EU won't, of course) or leave it to the negotiation period
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Rudi Hedman Caterham 02 Mar 17 9.24am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by nickgusset
I wonder how many people who bemoan foreign workers thought Auf Weidersein Pet was a great programme. Building homes for a country still recovering from war. When did the last bomb fall on England or half a generation of men wiped out? Edited by Rudi Hedman (02 Mar 2017 9.51am)
COYP |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| matt_himself Matataland 02 Mar 17 9.26am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Kermit8
But it's not another 'party' is it? It's 27 parties. I'm all for the olive branch. If one of them doesn't take it any law can be repealed or a new one introduced specifically to address a single irritation. If we go in hard and all billy big bollocks it will backfire spectacularly. The other 27 together will make mincemeat of us. We have a strong hand: Negotiations involve carrot and stick. The Lords failed to get this yesterday. Besides the '27' you speak of are not a united body and they will not act together in some instances because of self interest. This set of negotiations is not as straightforward as you think it is.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| npn Crowborough 02 Mar 17 9.59am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Kermit8
But it's not another 'party' is it? It's 27 parties. I'm all for the olive branch. If one of them doesn't take it any law can be repealed or a new one introduced specifically to address a single irritation. If we go in hard and all billy big bollocks it will backfire spectacularly. The other 27 together will make mincemeat of us. Sorry - responded to Nick, forgot you! I'm not sure what you hope to gain by the olive branch (I'd be all for it if it would work, but it won't). You can't give the other party (or parties) what they want before negotiations begin and then expect to get something out of those negotiations. You've given up your cards, and are just hoping they see fit to give you something in return later - very weak negotiating, that. It would be equivalent to the RMT in the current Southern rail dispute issuing new contracts stating the conductors will no longer open doors, and then later going into negotiations with Southern to see what they can get in return for their act of goodwill. The answer would be, unsurprisingly, absolutely nothing.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| hedgehog50 Croydon 02 Mar 17 10.04am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by npn
Sorry - responded to Nick, forgot you! I'm not sure what you hope to gain by the olive branch (I'd be all for it if it would work, but it won't). You can't give the other party (or parties) what they want before negotiations begin and then expect to get something out of those negotiations. You've given up your cards, and are just hoping they see fit to give you something in return later - very weak negotiating, that. It would be equivalent to the RMT in the current Southern rail dispute issuing new contracts stating the conductors will no longer open doors, and then later going into negotiations with Southern to see what they can get in return for their act of goodwill. The answer would be, unsurprisingly, absolutely nothing. Rule one, never underestimated the naivety of the liberal/left.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 02 Mar 17 10.12am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by hedgehog50
Rule one, never underestimated the naivety of the liberal/left.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Penge Eagle Beckenham 02 Mar 17 10.26am |
 |
|---|---|
|
Theresa May had proposed that EU workers currently living in the UK be allowed to remain in exchange for an agreement which gives British expats in the European Union the same rights. Angela Merkel said 'nein'!! [Link] So the Lords' grandstanding will really help the UK's negotiating hand... c***s! Edited by Penge Eagle (02 Mar 2017 10.27am)
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post | Board Moderator |
|
| Hrolf The Ganger 02 Mar 17 12.02pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Kermit8
But it's not another 'party' is it? It's 27 parties. I'm all for the olive branch. If one of them doesn't take it any law can be repealed or a new one introduced specifically to address a single irritation. If we go in hard and all billy big bollocks it will backfire spectacularly. The other 27 together will make mincemeat of us. That's what you are hoping for isn't it. To teach all us Brexit, pro British types a lesson.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Login / Register
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2023 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.