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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 04 Jul 18 3.32pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Matov


That is a fair question.

But first, why I feel so strongly about defending the referendum result on June 23rd.

Let us put aside the arguments from both sides about the foul play. I suspect that we could get bogged down in trading a variety of issues, with the farce that was Project Fear, promoted with Government support along to the 350 million claims for the NHS and the latest, disputed, comments from the electoral commission. Its all been done to death before and I am sure it will carry on into the future. That is fine but for me, it is not relevant to this particular issue.

For most of us, when we trot along to a polling booth, our individual votes count for very little. Due to the vagaries of our first past the post system, most seats tend to vote one way or the other and you could probably get away with weighing the vote rather than counting it. For example, where I live you could put a chimp in a suit and stick a blue rosette on it and people would still tick the Conservative box.

Now whether this is a positive or not is for a different thread, but I feel it is important to state it because of how that contrasted with what happened on June 23rd, 2016.

On June 23rd, 2016 we had a very rare situation in British politics. A straightforward, binary decision to make. The legislation enabling that referendum had been passed by a massive majority in the House of Commons. Every voter who chose to make the effort could decide whether they wanted the UK to remain inside of the EU or whether they wanted us to leave. And each vote was equally weighted. It mattered not a jolt where you lived. If you met the criteria for being eligible, then your vote mattered. Just two piles of votes and whichever one had the most in at the end won it.

And my side won. A majority of voters decided that the UK was to leave the EU. And that was a decision that the Government had promised to honour.

There were no credible claims of vote-rigging and even the most ardent Remainers are not disputing the legitimacy of the actual voting on the day itself.

Now if that victory is ignored, I believe each of us who took part has a serious question to ask ourselves. Do we believe in democracy? Do we believe that if a Government gives us a choice, along with a pledge to honour that decision and that choice is made, then that decision needs to be acted upon? Because if it is not, what legitimacy does our system of Governance have any more?

Every November we celebrate Remembrance Day. And we are constantly told that the sacrifice of those we honour was made to ensure we had the right to vote freely.

For me, June 23rd was perhaps the purest example of that right.

And if it is betrayed, then I believe that there is a legimate reason to seek the overthrow, by whatever means necessary, of any Government that seeks to scupper that. Up to and including direct action. Appealing directly to the Queen to dissolve the Government and reappoint one who will act on the will of the British people.

Now at some stage in the future, and I would be uncomfortable with it being an option for at least 15 years, I can envisage a scenario in which the British people are offered a chance for us to rejoin the EU or stay outside. So I accept that people can change their minds. But us actually leaving the EU, and for me that includes its defining institutions such as the Single Market and the Customs Union, has to happen. No ifs, no buts. Failure to do so and for me our democracy is dead and buried until such time as it does happen and future vote, on any level, is utterly futile.

I would love a deal with the EU that saw continued trade with as little friction as possible. If you actually read about the dispute concerning the Irish border, then it is nothing more than an administrative issue concerning VAT with perfectly viable tech-based solutions already in existence as the common travel area supersedes EU legislation anyway.

But if that is not possible, then we leave in March, we pay no more money to the EU and we accept whatever happens.

To attempt to deny the British people what they voted for on June 23rd will plunge this country into a crisis the likes of which it has never seen in modern times. With perhaps the General Strikes of 1926 or maybe the disruption in the 1918-19 period (worth looking up and rarely discussed)the best comparisons.

Edited by Matov (04 Jul 2018 3.13pm)

That's quite eloquent but leave lied and cheated and we are seeing the results.

There is only one word I can think of to adequately describe the selfishness of the old gits tory millionaires and landlords that have done this act of suicide and that is:-

Suez.

 

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View masonic_palace's Profile masonic_palace Flag Gatport Airwick 04 Jul 18 4.15pm Send a Private Message to masonic_palace Add masonic_palace as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

That's quite eloquent but leave lied and cheated and we are seeing the results.

What, and Remain didn't.....


Edited by masonic_palace (04 Jul 2018 4.17pm)

 


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View Islington Eagle's Profile Islington Eagle Flag North of the River 04 Jul 18 5.09pm Send a Private Message to Islington Eagle Add Islington Eagle as a friend

Norway style worst possible brexit (Brexit in name only) about to become Government policy - mark my words.

This will make nobody happy. Years of bitching and moaning for years to come and the economy under-performing compared to both the status quo (best outcome) or mental hard core brexit - which may deliver rainbow unicorns in 30 years time.

Worst part of this being that most of the people that voted out will be royally f***ed or dead (or both). Best part will be that the tories probably won't be in power again for a generation.

I'll be just fine cause I am part of the liberal metropolitan elite. Also my conscious is clear because I voted remain.

LMFAO

 


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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 04 Jul 18 5.26pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Also, how do we get ‘more of this post Brexit’?

It is an agreement between the EU and the USA?

Surely Brexit frees us from this sort of stitch up?

Edited by matt_himself (04 Jul 2018 12.00pm)

TTIP is not something unique. The Tories have been the biggest exponents of TTIP among EU member states. Liam Fox would sign up to it in a heartbeat. If he's in charge of our trade deals we'd be doing a US-UK TTIP plus plus plus negotiated largely to the US and big corporations benefits.

Brexit would make this worse with our right wing government. We would be getting far worse trade deals for ordinary people and far worse "investment partnerships" as well.

 

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 04 Jul 18 5.29pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Let me refresh your memory...

TTIP is a deal between the USA and the EU.

Please, read this ‘neo liberal’ periodical for an explanation:

[Link]

You support the EU and wish for the UK to be a part of the EU.

You oppose TTIP.

Please can you explain how your views are juxtaposed?

You sound like Donald Trump. Everything isn't a zero sum game or broken down into 100% good and 100% bad. I don't like elements of the EU, like TTIP and TISA, but that doesn't mean I think the answer is to flounce off and open ourselves up to even worse deals. If we had a better government we could object to TTIP and TISA from within the EU. You don't have to support 100% of the aspects of a club to think that you'd be better off being a member of it as things stand.

 

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 04 Jul 18 5.34pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov


That is a fair question.

But first, why I feel so strongly about defending the referendum result on June 23rd.

Let us put aside the arguments from both sides about the foul play. I suspect that we could get bogged down in trading a variety of issues, with the farce that was Project Fear, promoted with Government support along to the 350 million claims for the NHS and the latest, disputed, comments from the electoral commission. Its all been done to death before and I am sure it will carry on into the future. That is fine but for me, it is not relevant to this particular issue.

For most of us, when we trot along to a polling booth, our individual votes count for very little. Due to the vagaries of our first past the post system, most seats tend to vote one way or the other and you could probably get away with weighing the vote rather than counting it. For example, where I live you could put a chimp in a suit and stick a blue rosette on it and people would still tick the Conservative box.

Now whether this is a positive or not is for a different thread, but I feel it is important to state it because of how that contrasted with what happened on June 23rd, 2016.

On June 23rd, 2016 we had a very rare situation in British politics. A straightforward, binary decision to make. The legislation enabling that referendum had been passed by a massive majority in the House of Commons. Every voter who chose to make the effort could decide whether they wanted the UK to remain inside of the EU or whether they wanted us to leave. And each vote was equally weighted. It mattered not a jolt where you lived. If you met the criteria for being eligible, then your vote mattered. Just two piles of votes and whichever one had the most in at the end won it.

And my side won. A majority of voters decided that the UK was to leave the EU. And that was a decision that the Government had promised to honour.

There were no credible claims of vote-rigging and even the most ardent Remainers are not disputing the legitimacy of the actual voting on the day itself.

Now if that victory is ignored, I believe each of us who took part has a serious question to ask ourselves. Do we believe in democracy? Do we believe that if a Government gives us a choice, along with a pledge to honour that decision and that choice is made, then that decision needs to be acted upon? Because if it is not, what legitimacy does our system of Governance have any more?

Every November we celebrate Remembrance Day. And we are constantly told that the sacrifice of those we honour was made to ensure we had the right to vote freely.

For me, June 23rd was perhaps the purest example of that right.

And if it is betrayed, then I believe that there is a legimate reason to seek the overthrow, by whatever means necessary, of any Government that seeks to scupper that. Up to and including direct action. Appealing directly to the Queen to dissolve the Government and reappoint one who will act on the will of the British people.

Now at some stage in the future, and I would be uncomfortable with it being an option for at least 15 years, I can envisage a scenario in which the British people are offered a chance for us to rejoin the EU or stay outside. So I accept that people can change their minds. But us actually leaving the EU, and for me that includes its defining institutions such as the Single Market and the Customs Union, has to happen. No ifs, no buts. Failure to do so and for me our democracy is dead and buried until such time as it does happen and future vote, on any level, is utterly futile.

I would love a deal with the EU that saw continued trade with as little friction as possible. If you actually read about the dispute concerning the Irish border, then it is nothing more than an administrative issue concerning VAT with perfectly viable tech-based solutions already in existence as the common travel area supersedes EU legislation anyway.

But if that is not possible, then we leave in March, we pay no more money to the EU and we accept whatever happens.

To attempt to deny the British people what they voted for on June 23rd will plunge this country into a crisis the likes of which it has never seen in modern times. With perhaps the General Strikes of 1926 or maybe the disruption in the 1918-19 period (worth looking up and rarely discussed)the best comparisons.

Edited by Matov (04 Jul 2018 3.13pm)

That's clearly incorrect. Not straightforward. While there were 2 options one was ambiguous and directionless. Also it was advisory as we've been reminded today given the illegal spending by Vote Leave story.

Also the Irish border issue is about communities, identities, public safety and guaranteeing the GFA. There are no solutions available consistent with no more border infrastructure, which has already been enshrined in law.

 

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 04 Jul 18 6.40pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You sound like Donald Trump. Everything isn't a zero sum game or broken down into 100% good and 100% bad. I don't like elements of the EU, like TTIP and TISA, but that doesn't mean I think the answer is to flounce off and open ourselves up to even worse deals. If we had a better government we could object to TTIP and TISA from within the EU. You don't have to support 100% of the aspects of a club to think that you'd be better off being a member of it as things stand.

If, as a member of the EU, the 27 countries agree to TTIP and we don’t, how are we going to get a hearing?

We are not and that is because the EU is an organisation that forces its will on member states and promotes undemocratic practices, such as forcing Re-runs of referendum until it gets the result it wants or forcing its stooges to run countries.

We are better off out because we will once again be a sovereign state, able to direct our own destiny.

BTW, I think Trump is doing a wonderful job and is an upgrade on the previous inhabitant of the White House, so thank you for comparing me to him.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 04 Jul 18 8.45pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Ministers warn May not to skirt controversial Brexit issues at Chequers'

They mean not to upskirt surely, get it right.

The fate of our nation depends on these millionaires nutters landlords and parasites tomorrow apparently, so give it a few hours at least.........

If the country froze over and we faced starvation, the plane will always still be revved up on Fridays at 5.45am for Junckers or his successors, and another session of EU and Johnny Foreigner.

I don't expect to live beyond 90, even that seems incredible, but one thing I do know, the tories Europe obsession will still be going full blast.

They simply could not live without it.........

We will die batting for Britain against a perplexed continent who wonder what, if anything, they have done wrong.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 04 Jul 18 9.16pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20


We will die batting for Britain against a perplexed continent who wonder what, if anything, they have done wrong.

Is this the same continent that has Italy with a populist Government, Sweden with a party that many would consider to be far-right now polling as its largest and Germany fast becoming similar? A Europe where this so-called wonderous Shenghan agreement is purely for show only given the border controls going up all around it once again and with nations like Poland and Hungary openly defying Brussels?

I am sure that must look at us in utter bewilderment and wonder why we voted to leave.

 


In 1967, when Polish mercenary Rafal Ganowicz was asked what it felt like to take human life, replied: "I wouldn't know, I've only ever killed communists."

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 04 Jul 18 9.30pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

Is this the same continent that has Italy with a populist Government, Sweden with a party that many would consider to be far-right now polling as its largest and Germany fast becoming similar? A Europe where this so-called wonderous Shenghan agreement is purely for show only given the border controls going up all around it once again and with nations like Poland and Hungary openly defying Brussels?

I am sure that must look at us in utter bewilderment and wonder why we voted to leave.

As Mrs May said herself, the EU represents 'a failure of British leadership'.

Ridiculing the EU is not helpful when we have weakened it ourselves and we are solely to blame for our own problems, not the EU.

You won't get your pre-suez dream of empire but a third rate scandinavian banana republic.

We are heading for a worst fall than Suez.

 

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 04 Jul 18 9.53pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

'The campaign for Brexit now looks dishonest and discredited. Its dodgy legacy casts a shadow over Theresa May’s government'.

How 'dodgy' is the UK.

One of the worlds least representative democracies so-called, even Vietnam is more democratic.

Soaring in the list of corrupt countries.

We don't need a routine service, but a complete overhaul.

Dodgy is not even half of it.

 

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View Islington Eagle's Profile Islington Eagle Flag North of the River 05 Jul 18 5.13pm Send a Private Message to Islington Eagle Add Islington Eagle as a friend

As predicted here comes Brexit in name only. Full betrayal of the will of the people.

Come on Kippers lets see you out on the street..

 


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