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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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Brentmiester_General Flag Front line in the battle against t... 04 Jul 18 11.19am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Remember Vote Leave is about to be outed as having cheated.

Perfect get our clause for them to perform a massive u-turn without admitting defeat.

 


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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 04 Jul 18 11.31am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Remember Vote Leave is about to be outed as having cheated.

Cheated? Do me a favour. They over spent their allocation. So you think the vote should be overturned? Not going to happen.

Edited by Penge Eagle (04 Jul 2018 11.32am)

 


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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 04 Jul 18 11.36am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Just because some people with an ounce of sense voice concern it doesn't mean that the thing about which they are voicing concern isn't an establishment project or is in the best interests of ordinary people.

Those you mention haven't exactly been lock step with the government at all times up until now. There have always been policies that one or all of them have not thought was a particularly good thing. This one just happens to be an enormous project with huge consequences.

Vote Leave was supported by people like Crispin Odey, and Arron Banks - people with vested interests in flushing the economy down the toilet and creating negative shocks so they could make a profit from it.

Also, I think it's referred to as project reality nowadays.

I also find it incredible that those with left wing views, like yourself (this is not a criticism but an observation), support Remain despite the single market and the customs union being capitalist devices. Freedom of movement largely benefits big business.

The single market and the customs union is the thrust of leftish Remain argument for staying in the EU.

By doing so, the left is supporting TTIP.

You may call Brexit madness but the left caving into big business in this way, seemingly out of a desire NOT to be labelled racist, is laughable.

You are a tool of the establishment. You will deny this but it is so.

 


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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 04 Jul 18 11.37am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

Cheated? Do me a favour. They over spent their allocation. So you think the vote should be overturned? Not going to happen.

Edited by Penge Eagle (04 Jul 2018 11.32am)

[Link]

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 04 Jul 18 11.41am Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

Cheated? Do me a favour. They over spent their allocation. So you think the vote should be overturned? Not going to happen.

Edited by Penge Eagle (04 Jul 2018 11.32am)

In sport it's irrelevant if a cheat would have won anyway without cheating. They are disqualified. Not sure why this is not the case here. The Venice Convention, to which we are a signatory, states that cheating in elections renders them null and void. This however was only advisory so doesn't have the same legal safeguards. It allows the govt to treat it as binding one minute and not so the next. Hypocrites.

I think it brings it into disrepute for sure.

 

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 04 Jul 18 11.44am Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

I also find it incredible that those with left wing views, like yourself (this is not a criticism but an observation), support Remain despite the single market and the customs union being capitalist devices. Freedom of movement largely benefits big business.

The single market and the customs union is the thrust of leftish Remain argument for staying in the EU.

By doing so, the left is supporting TTIP.

You may call Brexit madness but the left caving into big business in this way, seemingly out of a desire NOT to be labelled racist, is laughable.

You are a tool of the establishment. You will deny this but it is so.

I don't like TTIP, but the biggest advocate for it was Cameron. We'd be far more open to this kind of thing post Brexit.

I am not a big fan of the EU, but without proper planning, as we're seeing, Brexit will be a disaster for ordinary people. If we can't do it properly don't do it at all. The Ireland issue also makes it impossible IMO. The Tories running Brexit is much worse than any possible alternative.

Better to have a seat at the table, vote in a left wing government, and reform from within. The idea of a single market and CU is a good one, but certain aspects like TTIP and elements of the rules have gone too far.

 

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 04 Jul 18 11.45am Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Good to see some impartial opinions on this...

Why would you trust a bunch of people who've proven to be utterly untrustworthy? The evidence speaks for itself.

 

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 04 Jul 18 11.45am Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

As we approach Friday’s Chequers summit the pressure from all sides is building on Theresa May. Latest to have her say is the Brexiter backbench MP Andrea Jenkyns, who has used an interview with ConservativeHome to as good as threaten that the PM will be ousted if she seeks a Norway-style Brexit solution.

Jenkyns said there had been regular meetings and phone calls during the week between “frustrated” backbenchers. An overly-soft Brexit would be “catastrophic for the Conservative party”, she added.


No mention of its impact on the country. Just on the Tories. Clear insight into what they care about.

 

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 04 Jul 18 11.58am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

I don't like TTIP, but the biggest advocate for it was Cameron. We'd be far more open to this kind of thing post Brexit.

I am not a big fan of the EU, but without proper planning, as we're seeing, Brexit will be a disaster for ordinary people. If we can't do it properly don't do it at all. The Ireland issue also makes it impossible IMO. The Tories running Brexit is much worse than any possible alternative.

Better to have a seat at the table, vote in a left wing government, and reform from within. The idea of a single market and CU is a good one, but certain aspects like TTIP and elements of the rules have gone too far.

Let me refresh your memory...

TTIP is a deal between the USA and the EU.

Please, read this ‘neo liberal’ periodical for an explanation:

[Link]

You support the EU and wish for the UK to be a part of the EU.

You oppose TTIP.

Please can you explain how your views are juxtaposed?

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 04 Jul 18 11.59am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Let me refresh your memory...

TTIP is a deal between the USA and the EU.

Please, read this ‘neo liberal’ periodical for an explanation:

[Link]

You support the EU and wish for the UK to be a part of the EU.

You oppose TTIP.

Please can you explain how your views are juxtaposed?

Also, how do we get ‘more of this post Brexit’?

It is an agreement between the EU and the USA?

Surely Brexit frees us from this sort of stitch up?

Edited by matt_himself (04 Jul 2018 12.00pm)

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 04 Jul 18 12.19pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

That'll learn me from trusting the BBC article I had read!

 


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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 04 Jul 18 3.11pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Brentmiester_General

And how exactly do you propose this happens?


That is a fair question.

But first, why I feel so strongly about defending the referendum result on June 23rd.

Let us put aside the arguments from both sides about the foul play. I suspect that we could get bogged down in trading a variety of issues, with the farce that was Project Fear, promoted with Government support along to the 350 million claims for the NHS and the latest, disputed, comments from the electoral commission. Its all been done to death before and I am sure it will carry on into the future. That is fine but for me, it is not relevant to this particular issue.

For most of us, when we trot along to a polling booth, our individual votes count for very little. Due to the vagaries of our first past the post system, most seats tend to vote one way or the other and you could probably get away with weighing the vote rather than counting it. For example, where I live you could put a chimp in a suit and stick a blue rosette on it and people would still tick the Conservative box.

Now whether this is a positive or not is for a different thread, but I feel it is important to state it because of how that contrasted with what happened on June 23rd, 2016.

On June 23rd, 2016 we had a very rare situation in British politics. A straightforward, binary decision to make. The legislation enabling that referendum had been passed by a massive majority in the House of Commons. Every voter who chose to make the effort could decide whether they wanted the UK to remain inside of the EU or whether they wanted us to leave. And each vote was equally weighted. It mattered not a jolt where you lived. If you met the criteria for being eligible, then your vote mattered. Just two piles of votes and whichever one had the most in at the end won it.

And my side won. A majority of voters decided that the UK was to leave the EU. And that was a decision that the Government had promised to honour.

There were no credible claims of vote-rigging and even the most ardent Remainers are not disputing the legitimacy of the actual voting on the day itself.

Now if that victory is ignored, I believe each of us who took part has a serious question to ask ourselves. Do we believe in democracy? Do we believe that if a Government gives us a choice, along with a pledge to honour that decision and that choice is made, then that decision needs to be acted upon? Because if it is not, what legitimacy does our system of Governance have any more?

Every November we celebrate Remembrance Day. And we are constantly told that the sacrifice of those we honour was made to ensure we had the right to vote freely.

For me, June 23rd was perhaps the purest example of that right.

And if it is betrayed, then I believe that there is a legimate reason to seek the overthrow, by whatever means necessary, of any Government that seeks to scupper that. Up to and including direct action. Appealing directly to the Queen to dissolve the Government and reappoint one who will act on the will of the British people.

Now at some stage in the future, and I would be uncomfortable with it being an option for at least 15 years, I can envisage a scenario in which the British people are offered a chance for us to rejoin the EU or stay outside. So I accept that people can change their minds. But us actually leaving the EU, and for me that includes its defining institutions such as the Single Market and the Customs Union, has to happen. No ifs, no buts. Failure to do so and for me our democracy is dead and buried until such time as it does happen and future vote, on any level, is utterly futile.

I would love a deal with the EU that saw continued trade with as little friction as possible. If you actually read about the dispute concerning the Irish border, then it is nothing more than an administrative issue concerning VAT with perfectly viable tech-based solutions already in existence as the common travel area supersedes EU legislation anyway.

But if that is not possible, then we leave in March, we pay no more money to the EU and we accept whatever happens.

To attempt to deny the British people what they voted for on June 23rd will plunge this country into a crisis the likes of which it has never seen in modern times. With perhaps the General Strikes of 1926 or maybe the disruption in the 1918-19 period (worth looking up and rarely discussed)the best comparisons.

Edited by Matov (04 Jul 2018 3.13pm)

 


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