If a manager plays Kelly and Ward as fullbacks

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bexleydave Barnehurst 21 Dec 16 1.43pm
Originally posted by NickinOX Either that, or he's living in his Gran's cellar after his parents kicked him out. Bexley Dave Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing! "The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)
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bexleydave

Barnehurst 21 Dec 16 1.43pm

Originally posted by NickinOX

Either that, or he's living in his Gran's cellar after his parents kicked him out.

Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

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EagleinSF San Fransisco 21 Dec 16 3.35pm
Originally posted by mattteo I don't understand what you guys mean by all round game. And that's the problem.... Gayle is a 1 dimensional player. That can work in the Championship, but not the Prem. Big Ben, Wickham have a lot more to their game than just goals
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EagleinSF

San Fransisco 21 Dec 16 3.35pm

Originally posted by mattteo

I don't understand what you guys mean by all round game.

And that's the problem....

Gayle is a 1 dimensional player. That can work in the Championship, but not the Prem.

Big Ben, Wickham have a lot more to their game than just goals

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mattteo 21 Dec 16 4.12pm
Originally posted by EagleinSF And that's the problem.... Gayle is a 1 dimensional player. That can work in the Championship, but not the Prem. Big Ben, Wickham have a lot more to their game than just goals You confuse big, tall, slow striker who harasses big, tall defenders and deviates high balls with overall play. It's a proven fact that short, faster strikers have more achievements. That's why many teams started to play with a false 9. It doesn't always work, but if it NEVER worked, all teams would have played with tall, big, dumb goons up front.
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mattteo

21 Dec 16 4.12pm

Originally posted by EagleinSF

And that's the problem....

Gayle is a 1 dimensional player. That can work in the Championship, but not the Prem.

Big Ben, Wickham have a lot more to their game than just goals

You confuse big, tall, slow striker who harasses big, tall defenders and deviates high balls with overall play.

It's a proven fact that short, faster strikers have more achievements. That's why many teams started to play with a false 9. It doesn't always work, but if it NEVER worked, all teams would have played with tall, big, dumb goons up front.

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spartakev2 Anerley 21 Dec 16 5.19pm
Originally posted by mattteo You confuse big, tall, slow striker who harasses big, tall defenders and deviates high balls with overall play. It's a proven fact that short, faster strikers have more achievements. That's why many teams started to play with a false 9. It doesn't always work, but if it NEVER worked, all teams would have played with tall, big, dumb goons up front. Bit harsh. I certainly wouldn't call benteke a dumb goon. As to big v small it depends on the way you play. Big suits our style of play, small doesn't which is why Gayle never had a chance. Not sure 'many' teams have started to play the false number 9, unless through injuries, in fact can't think of any in the premiership. .. Gayle is playing for the best team by far in the Championship, let's see how he gets on next season playing for one of the worst teams in the premiership before we start saying what a great player he is..
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spartakev2

Anerley 21 Dec 16 5.19pm

Originally posted by mattteo

You confuse big, tall, slow striker who harasses big, tall defenders and deviates high balls with overall play.

Bit harsh. I certainly wouldn't call benteke a dumb goon. As to big v small it depends on the way you play. Big suits our style of play, small doesn't which is why Gayle never had a chance.
Not sure 'many' teams have started to play the false number 9, unless through injuries, in fact can't think of any in the premiership. .. Gayle is playing for the best team by far in the Championship, let's see how he gets on next season playing for one of the worst teams in the premiership before we start saying what a great player he is..

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mattteo 21 Dec 16 7.18pm
Originally posted by spartakev2 Bit harsh. I certainly wouldn't call benteke a dumb goon. As to big v small it depends on the way you play. Big suits our style of play, small doesn't which is why Gayle never had a chance. Not sure 'many' teams have started to play the false number 9, unless through injuries, in fact can't think of any in the premiership. .. Gayle is playing for the best team by far in the Championship, let's see how he gets on next season playing for one of the worst teams in the premiership before we start saying what a great player he is.. I wasn't targeting Benteke. It was just a way of saying, I don't have anything against big, tall strikers. It's just that it's hard to find one who is mobile enough. And I rate mobility more that power. At least in modern football this is true. I'm totally ok with Vardy. Or Origi. Or Ighalo. Or Fernando Torres (back in his days). Or Mandzukic. But these are rare to find. These are the ones over 1,90 that I could think of and actually are mobile. One like Giroud.....scores a tone of goals, but is his overall contribution good enough? Does he run enough? Does he recover? Does he press? Does the team conceive more or less without him? Arsenal and Liverpool play with false 9s in the Premier League (Sanchez and Firmino) and they've been doing better than ever since they started this. Yes, it's true, not many PL teams do, but the PL is not the only place where football is played.It's very common in Spain or Italy. And before you say that it wouldn't work against Brittish teams, the Spanish ones have pretty much always dominated the English ones in the last 5 years. I can just recall the trashing Atletico gave Chelsea, 5-0 before Atletico became the god team it is today. They had not even been in the Champions League when they won by that margin against Chelsea (I think 4 goals were scored by the somewhat diminutive striker Falcao). Lastly, Newcastle wouldn't be the worst team in the Premier League. I'm not their fan, as someone blamed me, but they brought in Atsu (sensation), Matt Ritchie (who took up Bournemouth mostly on his own), Yedlin, Shelvey who is slow but passes great, the left back from Italy (I keep forgetting his name but I think it's Lazaar), Ayoze Perez is a hope, Mitrovic is reliable. Together with Gayle, they make a strong side. They had been doing ok since last December. Townsend was great for them in the second half of last's season, but what had been damaged in the first half could not be repaired. They went down, but someone has handled their transfers pretty well. Edited by mattteo (21 Dec 2016 7.21pm) Edited by mattteo (21 Dec 2016 7.23pm)
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mattteo

21 Dec 16 7.18pm

Originally posted by spartakev2

I wasn't targeting Benteke. It was just a way of saying, I don't have anything against big, tall strikers. It's just that it's hard to find one who is mobile enough. And I rate mobility more that power. At least in modern football this is true. I'm totally ok with Vardy. Or Origi. Or Ighalo. Or Fernando Torres (back in his days). Or Mandzukic. But these are rare to find. These are the ones over 1,90 that I could think of and actually are mobile. One like Giroud.....scores a tone of goals, but is his overall contribution good enough? Does he run enough? Does he recover? Does he press? Does the team conceive more or less without him?

Arsenal and Liverpool play with false 9s in the Premier League (Sanchez and Firmino) and they've been doing better than ever since they started this. Yes, it's true, not many PL teams do, but the PL is not the only place where football is played.It's very common in Spain or Italy. And before you say that it wouldn't work against Brittish teams, the Spanish ones have pretty much always dominated the English ones in the last 5 years. I can just recall the trashing Atletico gave Chelsea, 5-0 before Atletico became the god team it is today. They had not even been in the Champions League when they won by that margin against Chelsea (I think 4 goals were scored by the somewhat diminutive striker Falcao).

Lastly, Newcastle wouldn't be the worst team in the Premier League. I'm not their fan, as someone blamed me, but they brought in Atsu (sensation), Matt Ritchie (who took up Bournemouth mostly on his own), Yedlin, Shelvey who is slow but passes great, the left back from Italy (I keep forgetting his name but I think it's Lazaar), Ayoze Perez is a hope, Mitrovic is reliable. Together with Gayle, they make a strong side.
They had been doing ok since last December. Townsend was great for them in the second half of last's season, but what had been damaged in the first half could not be repaired. They went down, but someone has handled their transfers pretty well.

Edited by mattteo (21 Dec 2016 7.21pm)

Edited by mattteo (21 Dec 2016 7.23pm)

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ThatPetrolRelation Ottawa 21 Dec 16 7.31pm
Originally posted by mattteo You confuse big, tall, slow striker who harasses big, tall defenders and deviates high balls with overall play. It's a proven fact that short, faster strikers have more achievements. That's why many teams started to play with a false 9. It doesn't always work, but if it NEVER worked, all teams would have played with tall, big, dumb goons up front. Using terms like "It's a proven fact " when you are talking about subjective assessments of what players may / or may have been capable of will never win you any arguments. I am glad you have never been wrong in any of your player assessments in 10 years, but so far you are a still wrong about Gayle. You say he could be among the best in the Prem, possibly, but he hasn't been in the 3 seasons he had a chance. Potential is always tricky, because it will always depend on teammates, tactics and the Manager. By the way, there is an uneven statistical distribution of goals, more goals are scored toward the end of the half and towards the end of games (now this is a fact). It is also why there are many "super-subs", those who play in only the last 10 mins are more likely to score, because of score effects. So adding up minutes from someone who subs a lot, versus those who play full games is comparing apples to oranges.
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ThatPetrolRelation

Ottawa 21 Dec 16 7.31pm

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Originally posted by mattteo

You confuse big, tall, slow striker who harasses big, tall defenders and deviates high balls with overall play.

Using terms like "It's a proven fact " when you are talking about subjective assessments of what players may / or may have been capable of will never win you any arguments.

I am glad you have never been wrong in any of your player assessments in 10 years, but so far you are a still wrong about Gayle. You say he could be among the best in the Prem, possibly, but he hasn't been in the 3 seasons he had a chance.

Potential is always tricky, because it will always depend on teammates, tactics and the Manager.

By the way, there is an uneven statistical distribution of goals, more goals are scored toward the end of the half and towards the end of games (now this is a fact). It is also why there are many "super-subs", those who play in only the last 10 mins are more likely to score, because of score effects. So adding up minutes from someone who subs a lot, versus those who play full games is comparing apples to oranges.

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mattteo 21 Dec 16 9.10pm
Originally posted by ThatPetrolRelation Using terms like "It's a proven fact " when you are talking about subjective assessments of what players may / or may have been capable of will never win you any arguments. I am glad you have never been wrong in any of your player assessments in 10 years, but so far you are a still wrong about Gayle. You say he could be among the best in the Prem, possibly, but he hasn't been in the 3 seasons he had a chance. Potential is always tricky, because it will always depend on teammates, tactics and the Manager. By the way, there is an uneven statistical distribution of goals, more goals are scored toward the end of the half and towards the end of games (now this is a fact). It is also why there are many "super-subs", those who play in only the last 10 mins are more likely to score, because of score effects. So adding up minutes from someone who subs a lot, versus those who play full games is comparing apples to oranges. I agree that most goals are scored towards the end of the game. It's statistics. However....For every substitute who scores in the last minutes, I can provide you countless example of players who were on the pitch from minute no 1 and score in the last minutes. Yes, you could say that Gayle was a super-substitute. Flop in the Premier League? By what standards? Because he never actually cemented himself as a starter? He did his super-sub job like an ace. He has 17 goals and assists in 2.700 minutes in the PL alone. Not counting much better ratio in the Cups. Statistics, not subjective opinion, say that he has one of the best goals per minutes ration, behind 10-12 of the highest rated and best paid strikers in the PL. If he didn't become a starter it could only mean that there were 4 bad managers or that he's actually amazing as a substitute, coming on and changing the game. The first idea is more plausible as they all got fired, with Pardew on his way out too. I never speak subjectively. Statistics say this. As statistics say that Arsenal and Liverpool have been doing awesome with false 9s up front. They win more points statistically, not subjectively. Yes, you could say that it's not because Giroud or Benteke stopped playing and it's because of other, unrelated causes. But how was Liverpool with Andy Carrol? And how was Liverpool after, with Luis Suarez? Now with Firmino? How was England with Crouch and how was it with Rooney? Sometimes they're needed, when you cross a lot, when you push the opposition in their own box. But when you're mostly a small, counter attack team, you would do better with faster, rather than big, strikers. I dunno, Southampton I think improved with Shane Long there last year. And he's just...1,80 or smtg similar. Moenchengladbach went from mid-table to top 4 with Raffael and Stindl up front.
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mattteo

21 Dec 16 9.10pm

Originally posted by ThatPetrolRelation

Using terms like "It's a proven fact " when you are talking about subjective assessments of what players may / or may have been capable of will never win you any arguments.

Potential is always tricky, because it will always depend on teammates, tactics and the Manager.

I agree that most goals are scored towards the end of the game. It's statistics. However....For every substitute who scores in the last minutes, I can provide you countless example of players who were on the pitch from minute no 1 and score in the last minutes.

Yes, you could say that Gayle was a super-substitute. Flop in the Premier League? By what standards? Because he never actually cemented himself as a starter? He did his super-sub job like an ace. He has 17 goals and assists in 2.700 minutes in the PL alone. Not counting much better ratio in the Cups.
Statistics, not subjective opinion, say that he has one of the best goals per minutes ration, behind 10-12 of the highest rated and best paid strikers in the PL. If he didn't become a starter it could only mean that there were 4 bad managers or that he's actually amazing as a substitute, coming on and changing the game. The first idea is more plausible as they all got fired, with Pardew on his way out too.

I never speak subjectively. Statistics say this. As statistics say that Arsenal and Liverpool have been doing awesome with false 9s up front. They win more points statistically, not subjectively. Yes, you could say that it's not because Giroud or Benteke stopped playing and it's because of other, unrelated causes. But how was Liverpool with Andy Carrol? And how was Liverpool after, with Luis Suarez? Now with Firmino? How was England with Crouch and how was it with Rooney?

Sometimes they're needed, when you cross a lot, when you push the opposition in their own box.
But when you're mostly a small, counter attack team, you would do better with faster, rather than big, strikers. I dunno, Southampton I think improved with Shane Long there last year. And he's just...1,80 or smtg similar.
Moenchengladbach went from mid-table to top 4 with Raffael and Stindl up front.

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Nobbybm Dartford 21 Dec 16 11.08pm
Originally posted by mattteo I agree that most goals are scored towards the end of the game. It's statistics. However....For every substitute who scores in the last minutes, I can provide you countless example of players who were on the pitch from minute no 1 and score in the last minutes. Yes, you could say that Gayle was a super-substitute. Flop in the Premier League? By what standards? Because he never actually cemented himself as a starter? He did his super-sub job like an ace. He has 17 goals and assists in 2.700 minutes in the PL alone. Not counting much better ratio in the Cups. Statistics, not subjective opinion, say that he has one of the best goals per minutes ration, behind 10-12 of the highest rated and best paid strikers in the PL. If he didn't become a starter it could only mean that there were 4 bad managers or that he's actually amazing as a substitute, coming on and changing the game. The first idea is more plausible as they all got fired, with Pardew on his way out too. I never speak subjectively. Statistics say this. As statistics say that Arsenal and Liverpool have been doing awesome with false 9s up front. They win more points statistically, not subjectively. Yes, you could say that it's not because Giroud or Benteke stopped playing and it's because of other, unrelated causes. But how was Liverpool with Andy Carrol? And how was Liverpool after, with Luis Suarez? Now with Firmino? How was England with Crouch and how was it with Rooney? Sometimes they're needed, when you cross a lot, when you push the opposition in their own box. But when you're mostly a small, counter attack team, you would do better with faster, rather than big, strikers. I dunno, Southampton I think improved with Shane Long there last year. And he's just...1,80 or smtg similar. Moenchengladbach went from mid-table to top 4 with Raffael and Stindl up front. Then plummeted down the league & sacked their manager.... Will this be five? It's gonna be five! It IS five!
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Nobbybm

Dartford 21 Dec 16 11.08pm

Originally posted by mattteo

Sometimes they're needed, when you cross a lot, when you push the opposition in their own box.
But when you're mostly a small, counter attack team, you would do better with faster, rather than big, strikers. I dunno, Southampton I think improved with Shane Long there last year. And he's just...1,80 or smtg similar.
Moenchengladbach went from mid-table to top 4 with Raffael and Stindl up front.

Then plummeted down the league & sacked their manager....

Will this be five? It's gonna be five! It IS five!

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aashman12 22 Dec 16 9.22am
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch You have a point to be fair why play Ward and Kelly? Speroni one cap short of the record and Campbell never gets 90 minutes both would be better than those two. Cap?
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aashman12

22 Dec 16 9.22am

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

You have a point to be fair why play Ward and Kelly? Speroni one cap short of the record and Campbell never gets 90 minutes both would be better than those two.

Cap?

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