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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 23 May 17 11.48am

Originally posted by becky

Therein lies the problem, Stirling. I totally agree with what you say, but for those who follow Islam it cannot be reformed - after several earlier revisions the prophet Mohammed stated that the last Koran was the final version and it was the word of Allah that no other Koran could be written. Therefore it 'cannot' be revised or reformed. I fear those who try have a long, hard and troubled road ahead of them.

Yeah but people said that about the bible as well. Odd as it may seem, one of growing movements within Islam has been feminism (its quite a popular movement in Iran of all places).

But like any religion, change comes at different rates and pace in different sects and movements, because idiots cling to truth that isn't their for political purposes, rather than admit that someone else might be right.

Sadly, its usually those who cling to 'old truths' because they give them power over others, who cause the suffering.

Its absurd to most of us, that anyone would consider a book written 1400, or 2000 or 5000 years ago as being a 'complete truth' because, we've read other books that have come since.

Ignorance is bad enough, but people who cling to ignorance in denial of the world and people around them are always dangerous.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 23 May 17 11.52am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Quran, chapter 9(towbah),verse 29

Problem is, in the 6th/7th century perspective that makes some sense, given the region and the politics - The problem is people who 1400 years later see this as important, and don't see the context around it - Or those who quote it without reference to the rest of the text and other rules and laws.

Religion is full of bulls**t that maybe made sense a thousand or so years ago. But that's the problem with religion, it peddles an absolute truth, and that is as dangerous as things like the 'Party Truth' in Communism, because it gives an authourative truth against which anything can be justified.

Its a bit like trying to fix your mates car based on the Manual for a Model T Ford. Its always going to end badly, probably for someone else.

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 May 17 12.01pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Yeah but people said that about the bible as well. Odd as it may seem, one of growing movements within Islam has been feminism (its quite a popular movement in Iran of all places).

But like any religion, change comes at different rates and pace in different sects and movements, because idiots cling to truth that isn't their for political purposes, rather than admit that someone else might be right.

Sadly, its usually those who cling to 'old truths' because they give them power over others, who cause the suffering.

Its absurd to most of us, that anyone would consider a book written 1400, or 2000 or 5000 years ago as being a 'complete truth' because, we've read other books that have come since.

Ignorance is bad enough, but people who cling to ignorance in denial of the world and people around them are always dangerous.

Feminism in Islam.....hang on....I'm waiting for the punchline.

What you are referring to would make even a first wave feminist despair.

 


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View ElliottHutchins's Profile ElliottHutchins Flag Wakefield 23 May 17 12.04pm Send a Private Message to ElliottHutchins Add ElliottHutchins as a friend

I was in Manchester on Sunday for the football and me and my Dad went for drinks and food afterwards and I was saying how much I liked Manchester.

My dad lives and works in the centre as well.

One of my girlfriend's friends and her 8 year old daughter were at the concert as well. Thankfully they are home but are shaken. Apparently, her husband drove at 120mph down the M62 from Leeds to pick them up (they were meant to be getting the train back).

This was far too close to home for me. Absolutely terrified for the future of my kids. I can't even begin to understand how those parents of missing kids feel. It's really upset me this has

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 23 May 17 12.06pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Problem is, in the 6th/7th century perspective that makes some sense, given the region and the politics - The problem is people who 1400 years later see this as important, and don't see the context around it - Or those who quote it without reference to the rest of the text and other rules and laws.

Religion is full of bulls**t that maybe made sense a thousand or so years ago. But that's the problem with religion, it peddles an absolute truth, and that is as dangerous as things like the 'Party Truth' in Communism, because it gives an authourative truth against which anything can be justified.

Its a bit like trying to fix your mates car based on the Manual for a Model T Ford. Its always going to end badly, probably for someone else.

And yet we have allowed and are still allowing thousand upon thousand of religious persuasion into this country knowing full well the potential for problems they bring with them.

As I have said before, tragedies like this one are just collateral damage to politicians who will do nothing except make a few speeches and cancel a few weeks of police holiday until everyone moves on. I do wonder just what it would take for them to change their policy.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 May 17 12.07pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by serial thriller

First and foremost, a tragic day for all those affected.

On the point of Religious Fundamentalism, I disagree that Islam is unique as a world religion atm. Around 30% of Americans are Evangelicals, who believe the Biblenis thenliteral word of God, that Jesus will be reborn in theirnlifetime and that America should 'spread' God's message. Evangelicals are the fastest growing segment of the church globally.

That is a group from which numerous mass murderers, war mongers and race hate groups have stemmed from, not just recently, but for well over a hundred years. The emergence of global Islamic terrorism is fairly recent, probably dating to the Gulf war and formation of Hezbollah. To tackle it, we have to stop leaving countries like Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Yemen and Iraq in anarchy.

Sorry, that is a totally deflective argument.

Any 'interpretation' of religion is problematical, some more so than others but to try and deflect the very real issue by bringing up other religion's issues is risible.

Please tell me what problems we are currently experiencing from the actions of evangelicals.

Please tell me if you know of any security money that has to be budgeted due to the beliefs and actions of evangelicals.

Totally risible argument and you deserve criticism for it.

 


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View Sportyteacher's Profile Sportyteacher Flag London 23 May 17 12.10pm Send a Private Message to Sportyteacher Add Sportyteacher as a friend

Originally posted by michaelpearce

So sad attacking children is the lowest form just dont know how to , i spent alot of time in manchester in tears now for the people we have lost they was only kids for god sake why oh why god rest little ones will be thinking of you all in my prays xx

Anybody with a heart will be shedding at least several tears today. News to leave most feeling ...well, numb. Heartbreaking for the bereaved. As a dad, I also very much warm to James O'Brien's emotional reply to the atrocity on LBC this morning:

[Link]

 

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View serial thriller's Profile serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 23 May 17 12.19pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Sorry, that is a totally deflective argument.

Any 'interpretation' of religion is problematical, some more so than others but to try and deflect the very real issue by bringing up other religion's issues is risible.

Please tell me what problems we are currently experiencing from the actions of evangelicals.

Please tell me if you know of any security money that has to be budgeted due to the beliefs and actions of evangelicals.

Totally risible argument and you deserve criticism for it.

Depends where you are. In America you're around 100x more likely to be killed by an Evangelical than an Islamic terrorist. Look at the religion of most school massacres.

But of course on a higher level you have the religious basis for American wars across the world. People don't realise the extent to this, but given that the Republican base is well over 50% Evangelical, while most of its political officials similarly believe in the literal truth of the Bible, it can't be underestimated how effective religious sentiment is in judtifying every foreign atrocity.

It explains why the US is the only major power not committed to tackling climate change, because most Republicans think the earth was created 3000 years ago and Judgement Day is round the corner. This affects our national security, not only in us having to drastically raise spending on flood defences etc but in creating displaced populations around the world, where terrorist recruiters have a field day.


 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 May 17 12.21pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Sportyteacher

Anybody with a heart will be shedding at least several tears today. News to leave most feeling ...well, numb. Heartbreaking for the bereaved. As a dad, I also very much warm to James O'Brien's emotional reply to the atrocity on LBC this morning:

[Link]

Yep I listened to it and it was moving.

However this is the man who compared Amber Rudd's words to Hitler. So I'm afraid he's someone you take seriously not me.

 


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View Michaelawt85's Profile Michaelawt85 Flag Bexley 23 May 17 12.22pm Send a Private Message to Michaelawt85 Add Michaelawt85 as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

Mainstream Islam encompasses a whole swathe of differing groups who have no interest in bombing you or taking over your civilisation or harming you or your country in any way whatsoever because their God is not an angry God so why you are so bothered by them is a mystery.

They will also evolve naturally over the decades/centuries as modernity catches up with them but, in the meantime, should you not be concentrating on those who do wish us harm?Reforming the crap out of them by all means possible rather than focusing on innocents?

Can try and reform all people want there will always be a minority or people who take a teaching or words from any holy book and twist or interpret it to fit their own agenda. Know a few Muslims who are as sickened as everyone else about what has taken place. They don't want these acts being carried out in their name. They are sick of comments from strangers in the street when they go out that because they are Muslim or wearing a hijab they are a problem or menace in some way. Equally as fed up with the rantings I have seen elsewhere on the internet that insinuates we are all at war with Islam and all Muslims should be and I quote 'sent home' I don't want that kind of crap being spouted in my name as someone born in Britain.

One thing I did hear on the news this morning was isis actually have globally in countries which they fight or with sympathisers who carry out individual terrorist attacks in the west more Muslim victims . Apparently 90%

 


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pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 23 May 17 12.27pm

Just.........RIP.

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 May 17 12.28pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by serial thriller

Depends where you are. In America you're around 100x more likely to be killed by an Evangelical than an Islamic terrorist. Look at the religion of most school massacres.

But of course on a higher level you have the religious basis for American wars across the world. People don't realise the extent to this, but given that the Republican base is well over 50% Evangelical, while most of its political officials similarly believe in the literal truth of the Bible, it can't be underestimated how effective religious sentiment is in judtifying every foreign atrocity.

It explains why the US is the only major power not committed to tackling climate change, because most Republicans think the earth was created 3000 years ago and Judgement Day is round the corner. This affects our national security, not only in us having to drastically raise spending on flood defences etc but in creating displaced populations around the world, where terrorist recruiters have a field day.


You didn't answer my questions from the previous post.

Again, how much money are we spending on tackling the problems from fundamentalist Christianity?

You go on about it but you are making a risible point.

I also have serious problems with your description of the republican base being a fair one but I can't be bothered to spend too much time on your attempts to deflect.

Again, if someone isn't causing me a problem I have a certain tolerance for whatever crap they believe....Though I will argue the secular argument with them.

You deserve the criticism you get for your argument.

 


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