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Bias against Trump

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 30 Jan 19 7.19pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

The so called power of the "Jewish lobby" is overrated. It is blamed for a lot and a lot of that blame is anti-Semitic. No, middle eastern US policy is heavily influenced by a far larger and more powerful voting block.

Mmmm....that lobby is the source of a lot of funding of politicians in both houses. I'm not anti Israel but I notice that politicians who aren't in support of Israel are pretty rare in the US.

I don't regard criticism of the Jewish lobby is anti Semitic. I don't regard criticism of Jews who hold one attitude towards immigration when it comes to the US but another one when it comes to Israel as anti Semitic.

Anti semitism is an intolerance of someone for being Jewish regardless of what views they have....I have noticed how quick many people are (I'm not referring to you) to regard any criticism as a form of racism to frighten and shut people up.

I would regard myself as for the existence of Israel but not particularly fond of the activist lobbies in the US and Europe.....But usually in favour of the significant minority of the western right wing voices in the Jewish community.

Originally posted by silvertop

An estimated 40% of Americans describe themselves as evangelical Christian. They are the sort who proudly hang flags outside their properties, take voting very seriously and mostly vote Republican.

They also strongly believe that Israel was given to the Jews by God. Anything that is perceived to threaten the holy state of Israel - the US traditionally gives carte blanche to crushing.

I think you are grouping a hell of a lot of people there....Obviously every group contains varying strength of feeling for various policies....from lukewarm to strong....I think to be fair you are talking about the activist wing of the evangelicals.

But in a generalised sense I wouldn't disagree as this policy is the end result.....However, this is also the position of the Jewish lobbies to an even more committed degree....Your appear to criticise one but not really the other.

On their support of Israel I can't say I consider Israel's opponents as more worthy.


Originally posted by silvertop

Thus, Qatar and Saudia Arabia have aweful human rights; and their citizens make up and finanace ISIS, AQ and terrorist cells that actually threaten our country. But they sell the US oil, buy their weapons, invest in the West and - while hardly friends of Israel - do nothing to threaten that country.

Sure....correct.


Originally posted by silvertop

Iran, on the other hand, are labelled the "biggest state sponsors of terrorism". This is because it is their policy to support their shiite "brothers" in Hezbollah against Israel. They have no involvement whatever in acts of terrorisim in the west. If that statement is wrong, I want examples and proof.

There's a section to their activities in western and other countries....As too proof....I can only suggest that comes down to the balance of probabilities.....Who you believe and don't believe.......though personally I'm not thinking that a state which promotes regular 'death to America' chants and is known to sponsor terrorism is particular shy when it comes to opportunities which emerge.

[Link]


Originally posted by silvertop

So, the 2 sides of the Islamic schism - represented by mainly Saudi Arabia for the Sunnis and Iran for the Shiites - are fighting destructive proxy wars in Syria, Iraq and - most appallingly - Yemen. Yet the west roundly condemns Iran for acts that will destabilise the region; but Saudi Arabia remains largely free from criticism.

I am aware that weapons, oil and investment are powerful factors in this. However, if the west took a neutral stance against Iran as we do the Saudis - did not bleed them dry through sanctions but traded freely with them - they might buy our guns, sell us their oil and invest their profits in our countries.

Yep....all done on the 'enemy of your enemy is your friend' basis....on both sides by the US and Saud.

Also I don't think it's right to say that Saudi doesn't get criticised.....but of course you are correct about the bias.....all done in self interest.

Your last paragraph echos the kind of thinking that Obama had as he entered his first term....Indeed he went palms open and appealed to Iran for a fresh start....That didn't work out well for him.

Now on the face of it there is something to be said for the neutral stance.....but I also think it's unrealistic. It has to be understood that the opposing positions that both countries hold is based upon decades of conflict. The cultural animus can't be undone with words......The US would have to abandon Israel and step back completely.

Essentially that would lead to Israel defending itself far more aggressively as it knew that its enemies no longer would fear US involvement......Nuclear war would be far more likely and if Israel lost you have the eventual slaughter of 15 million Jews.

As things stand....If I'm honest I don't see a way out without blood......But I think abandoning Israel would certainly lead to that blood being shed much sooner.

Also I'm European, so I have a bias towards Israel as it is a western facing democracy mostly filled by Jews from Europe......though I won't disagree with various criticisms.


Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jan 2019 7.26pm)

 

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 31 Jan 19 11.22am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Please tell me where Iran sponsors terrorism outside Israel? This is not an attack. It is a genuine question.

I said: "Iran is the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world".

The richest terrorist group in the world with an annual income of 1.1 billion dollars is Hizballah. This Lebanese group is funded by Iran and has seen its money increased (from 200m dollars) after sanctions were lifted by Obama.

"The organization’s worldwide crime operation extends from South America, through Africa, Europe, the Far East, Australia and the Middle East."

They are also biggest annual funder of Hamas (ranked no.3) with 700m dollars. [Link]

A list of Iran and state-sponsored terrorism attacks in other countries: [Link]

Edited by Penge Eagle (31 Jan 2019 11.25am)

 


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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 31 Jan 19 11.55am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop


An estimated 40% of Americans describe themselves as evangelical Christian. They are the sort who proudly hang flags outside their properties, take voting very seriously and mostly vote Republican.

Pew Research says evangelicals total 25%. [Link]

The research also says that 55% of evangelicals have conservative views. [Link]

The data does not support your claims on this.

 


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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 01 Feb 19 10.40am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

I said: "Iran is the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world".

The richest terrorist group in the world with an annual income of 1.1 billion dollars is Hizballah. This Lebanese group is funded by Iran and has seen its money increased (from 200m dollars) after sanctions were lifted by Obama.

"The organization’s worldwide crime operation extends from South America, through Africa, Europe, the Far East, Australia and the Middle East."

They are also biggest annual funder of Hamas (ranked no.3) with 700m dollars. [Link]

A list of Iran and state-sponsored terrorism attacks in other countries: [Link]

Edited by Penge Eagle (31 Jan 2019 11.25am)

Yup, take Israel out of the equation and your clutching at straws.

Also, Hezbollah - terrorists or freedom fighters? Given the ongoing oppression of the Palestinians is that honestly an easy question? Obvs they'd put a bullet in my brain soon as look at me, but fine lines nevertheless.

Now compare what you have posted with the sponsorship of Sunni terrorism by citizens of those darlings of the West, Saudi Arabia and the UAE...

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 01 Feb 19 10.55am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Yup, take Israel out of the equation and your clutching at straws.

Also, Hezbollah - terrorists or freedom fighters? Given the ongoing oppression of the Palestinians is that honestly an easy question? Obvs they'd put a bullet in my brain soon as look at me, but fine lines nevertheless.

Now compare what you have posted with the sponsorship of Sunni terrorism by citizens of those darlings of the West, Saudi Arabia and the UAE...

PS Hamas - who ranked them no3 terrorists? Was it the US by chance? Is this the same Hamas that was duly elected through verified democratic process to govern? Once again, is "terrorist" an accurate term for a UN-sanctioned legitimate government? Obviously, they are far from angels, much of their activity probably does fall under the definition of "terrorism" and I would rather a secular, moderate liberal government in place. However, which Palestinian occupier of the Strip is going to vote for a government perceived as weak and who they would associate with the West that blindly supports their oppressor? Would you? No, this appears to be a label that neatly suits Israel and the US.

On which, $700M! Really? A drop in the Ocean compared to the money supplied to Israel by the US. Hardly fair given the rich oppresses and the poor are oppressed.

I have no easy solution for this complex conundrum and I want Israel to prosper in peace. However, the one source of this problem is the unbending support of the American Christian right for Israel. Less of that and maybe Israel can find a more intelligent solution that doesn't involve keeping their boot permanently on the Palestinian head. It is one of the primary causes of tension in the region; the other being the schism in which Iran plays only one part.

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 01 Feb 19 10.59am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

Pew Research says evangelicals total 25%. [Link]

The research also says that 55% of evangelicals have conservative views. [Link]

The data does not support your claims on this.

Ah a different figure I read. However, cross-check that against propensity to vote and you will see why the bed-rock of Republican votes comes from this huge community.

Also, 45% consider themselves more liberal and thus more likely to vote for the Democrats? This may explain why the unwavering support for Israel is largely cross-party, although Israel tends to behave a little better when a Democrat president is in office.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 01 Feb 19 11.01am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Yup, take Israel out of the equation and your clutching at straws.

Also, Hezbollah - terrorists or freedom fighters? Given the ongoing oppression of the Palestinians is that honestly an easy question? Obvs they'd put a bullet in my brain soon as look at me, but fine lines nevertheless.

Now compare what you have posted with the sponsorship of Sunni terrorism by citizens of those darlings of the West, Saudi Arabia and the UAE...


There is no such thing as the 'good guy' and the 'bad guy'. That kind of thinking isn't dealing with the harsh realities of the world.

Ultimately the real world is just a sophisticated version of the playground.....I find that a lot of nice left wing people are the type who rushed to the safety of the library during playtime...to avoid the reality.

Sure you can pretend you are apart from it and pick the obvious holes.....but like you realise...that won't save you from the bullet. Those who won't pick a side for themselves....It's just a matter of time before they get a side picked for them.

The Palestinian question is intractable, Israel will either exist or it won't. The Palestinians aren't going to live along side the Jews in peace so the Jews are slowly pushing them out.

The peace route died with Rabin.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Feb 2019 11.06am)

 

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 01 Feb 19 11.55am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Yup, take Israel out of the equation and your clutching at straws.

Also, Hezbollah - terrorists or freedom fighters? Given the ongoing oppression of the Palestinians is that honestly an easy question? Obvs they'd put a bullet in my brain soon as look at me, but fine lines nevertheless.

Now compare what you have posted with the sponsorship of Sunni terrorism by citizens of those darlings of the West, Saudi Arabia and the UAE...

You can use 'whataboutery' with regards to Saudi Arabia but the data corroborates my statement.

I specifically said: "Iran is the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world".

The world includes every country and you can't substitute some to fit your narrative. Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, no question.

Read my link to the Forbes article and you will see they got their information from multiple sources.

Edited by Penge Eagle (01 Feb 2019 11.55am)

 


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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 01 Feb 19 12.41pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

PS Hamas - who ranked them no3 terrorists? Was it the US by chance? Is this the same Hamas that was duly elected through verified democratic process to govern? Once again, is "terrorist" an accurate term for a UN-sanctioned legitimate government? Obviously, they are far from angels, much of their activity probably does fall under the definition of "terrorism" and I would rather a secular, moderate liberal government in place. However, which Palestinian occupier of the Strip is going to vote for a government perceived as weak and who they would associate with the West that blindly supports their oppressor? Would you? No, this appears to be a label that neatly suits Israel and the US.

On which, 0M! Really? A drop in the Ocean compared to the money supplied to Israel by the US. Hardly fair given the rich oppresses and the poor are oppressed.

I have no easy solution for this complex conundrum and I want Israel to prosper in peace. However, the one source of this problem is the unbending support of the American Christian right for Israel. Less of that and maybe Israel can find a more intelligent solution that doesn't involve keeping their boot permanently on the Palestinian head. It is one of the primary causes of tension in the region; the other being the schism in which Iran plays only one part.

The Forbes article – which I linked to – ranked Hamas No.3 richest in the world behind the Taliban.

Again, you are using 'whataboutery' with regards to what the US gives Israel in military aid. We have been talking about the evil Iranian regime and keeping them in check or they will destabilise the whole region – it's not just about a beef with Israel.

"Hardly fair given the rich oppresses and the poor are oppressed." That's straight out of the Communist Manifesto!

Do you not think that IF Iran got a nuke, there would not be a nuclear arms race in the region? We are supposed to be decreasing nuclear weapons and not increasing. I'm sure you would agree that it wouldn't be a good idea for Saudi Arabia to have nuclear weapons.

Israel are well in range of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas – yet they are the oppressors? Unlike South Korea, they have not asked for one US soldier to protect them. The defence assistance is not only morally right but is spent back in the US economy with US-made hardware and the countries work together to develop improved weaponry and security. And that ultimately helps the UK defence and NATO because the US and Israel are allies of ours – NOT Iran.

Edited by Penge Eagle (01 Feb 2019 12.57pm)

 


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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 04 Feb 19 10.45am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

I said: "Iran is the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world".

The richest terrorist group in the world with an annual income of 1.1 billion dollars is Hizballah. This Lebanese group is funded by Iran and has seen its money increased (from 200m dollars) after sanctions were lifted by Obama.

"The organization’s worldwide crime operation extends from South America, through Africa, Europe, the Far East, Australia and the Middle East."

They are also biggest annual funder of Hamas (ranked no.3) with 700m dollars. [Link]

A list of Iran and state-sponsored terrorism attacks in other countries: [Link]

Edited by Penge Eagle (31 Jan 2019 11.25am)

Hamas? It is an elected government!

And Forbes? The vast wholly "impartial" US media giant that takes its lead from the US State Department... which takes us full circle to the beginning of this little chat.

The US has backed innumerable despotic states (e.g Iran pre-revolution) and terrorist organisations who they conveniently rename "freedom fighters". Iran is no worse and no better than many countries they back. So you have to ask yourself: why the disproportionate treatment? The answer is not that it is the biggest "state sponsor of terrorism". That is an excuse to justify a wholly lop-sided support of Israel and our wealthy middle east partners who are fighting on the other side of the proxy war.

 

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 04 Feb 19 11.07am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Hamas? It is an elected government!

And Forbes? The vast wholly "impartial" US media giant that takes its lead from the US State Department... which takes us full circle to the beginning of this little chat.

The US has backed innumerable despotic states (e.g Iran pre-revolution) and terrorist organisations who they conveniently rename "freedom fighters". Iran is no worse and no better than many countries they back. So you have to ask yourself: why the disproportionate treatment? The answer is not that it is the biggest "state sponsor of terrorism". That is an excuse to justify a wholly lop-sided support of Israel and our wealthy middle east partners who are fighting on the other side of the proxy war.

It IS the biggest state sponsor of terrorism and I have proved with evidence. That's the same data across the whole internet. Where is your information to disprove it? You don't have any!

I should be surprised that you would rather take sides with an evil dictatorship that not only threatens its neighbours and subsidises global terrorism, but oppresses and kills its own people over the USA. But you're a textbook leftist, so I'm not.

 


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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 04 Feb 19 11.21am Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

It IS the biggest state sponsor of terrorism and I have proved with evidence. That's the same data across the whole internet. Where is your information to disprove it? You don't have any!

I should be surprised that you would rather take sides with an evil dictatorship that not only threatens its neighbours and subsidises global terrorism, but oppresses and kills its own people over the USA. But you're a textbook leftist, so I'm not.

I am afraid if you are an entirely innocent resident of Libya, Syria Yemen you don't have much choice in who bombs you, starves you or leaves your environment devastated.

To our shame it will probably have been backed by the UK and certainly the USA, whilst denying it, and probably carried out by them too.

 

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