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February 20 2019 1.01am

The dangerous liberal world of California

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 06 Jan 18 1.16pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

So if you were in charge the troubles would still be going on because you are unwilling to give and take.

If I think what I would have done to the IRA if I had been in power and to the people who would have looked to stop me.....This isn't a topic I can speak that rationally on.

I would not have came to the agreement that emerged no. But I would have been open to discussions.

The IRA were not in a strong position at the time and I think what has happened is the long term abandonment of the unionists via the cowards way out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jan 2018 1.32pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 06 Jan 18 1.27pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by legaleagle

And your own personal experience of being in that situation in N Ireland is,I presume,zero?

I have at least heard about what happened and the run up from people who were para squaddies on the ground.

As for which of us might have encountered more "real life" situations personally,let's just say I don't feel challenged by you in that regard..you have no idea what I might have or not have encountered but it doesn't prevent you stating what is purely a personal bias as if it were fact.

Well half my family are unionists in Belfast....so I don't know...how about I've spoken quite a lot to people who lived through it.

Plus my half brother did two tours of Northern Ireland and ended up marrying an Irish girl, whom he had to marry in the UK due to threats.

As for my experience of violence and knowledge of how people react under it. I was a bouncer for a short time as a younger man and helped run a pub in Bermondsey so I know a bit about confrontation and how people react during violence. It's a bit different to the boxing ring.

You talk from the position of a 'legal' person. It isn't something I have much time for no.

What happened was the responsibility of the British army....that much I agree on. Our response should have been compensation to the victim's families......where is the compensation from the IRA to the British victims.


Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jan 2018 1.31pm)

 

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legaleagle Flag 06 Jan 18 1.33pm

Stirling,I talk from the position of "me"...notwithstanding my (admittedly naff) username I chose on the spur of the moment years ago

And remember,I was talking about the events of Bloody Sunday specifically,not the Troubles generally.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 06 Jan 18 1.38pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by legaleagle

Stirling,I talk from the position of "me"...notwithstanding my (admittedly naff) username I chose on the spur of the moment years ago

And remember,I was talking about the events of Bloody Sunday specifically,not the Troubles generally.

Well, your right to a viewpoint is valid even if I don't agree with it.

This is a topic I get quite angry about and I find it hard to be balanced on so perhaps I should look to limit myself on it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jan 2018 1.40pm)

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Jan 18 4.06pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Being a patriot I have a side.

We were at fault by over reaction on bloody Sunday....but not to the extent that we arrest soldiers that we put there and who were attacked and in a highly pressured situation.....soldiers are not Policemen.

The good friday agreement releases IRA murderers....and actually allows these scum into political power sharing over British citizens and then that?


Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jan 2018 3.07am)

The Good Friday agreement also released Loyalist murderers as well. I think pragmatically it was the right decision - especially with hindsight - as its massively reduced the problems of Northern Ireland and largely resulted in a unprecedented level of peace as well as positive changes socially. The cost of that peace and stability, I'm not keen on, but I think the days of the paramilitaries are all but dead, and generations of Irish kids have grown out of the sectarianism and division, sufficiently, that I suspect within the next generation the likes of Sinn Fein and the DUP will be more benign political entities.

As for Bloody Sunday, there should have been a proper enquiry, and those troops responsible for firing, should have been held accountable along with their officers. They acted unlawfully, and the result was a massive recruiting drive for the Provisional IRA, an escalation in violence and derailed the mostly civil rights movement.

Bloody Sunday, I can't abide by that. Unarmed civilians shot and killed by the army, without any real provocation. The state then protected and covered up afterwards, and engaged in a series of attempts to paint those killed as terrorists, inc planting evidence.

Unacceptable in any country that claims to be a democratic authority of law. Even in a war zone, their actions were criminal. Protecting them envigorated the Provisional IRA, ended the non-partisan civil rights movement at its height - and resulted in an escalation of violence that lasted decades; resulting in a rise in casualties, both British and Northern Irish.

At the time, it was the civil rights movement, not the Provos or the Loyalists, that were the most dominant political movement in Northern Ireland - Bloody Sunday ended that in a day - resulting in the domination of the political scene by terrorist factions such as the DUP and Sinn Fein that still exists.

The impact of Bloody Sunday was catastrophic for generations of Northern Irish.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Jan 18 4.10pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Well half my family are unionists in Belfast....so I don't know...how about I've spoken quite a lot to people who lived through it.

Plus my half brother did two tours of Northern Ireland and ended up marrying an Irish girl, whom he had to marry in the UK due to threats.

As for my experience of violence and knowledge of how people react under it. I was a bouncer for a short time as a younger man and helped run a pub in Bermondsey so I know a bit about confrontation and how people react during violence. It's a bit different to the boxing ring.

You talk from the position of a 'legal' person. It isn't something I have much time for no.

What happened was the responsibility of the British army....that much I agree on. Our response should have been compensation to the victim's families......where is the compensation from the IRA to the British victims.


Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jan 2018 1.31pm)

The IRA are a criminal organisation and terrorists. The British Government is a lawful state. There is an obligation on states to act lawfully, and enforce to rule of law, even when its politically inconvenient or unpopular.

Those people killed on Bloody Sunday, weren't terrorists, they were innocent British Citizens, killed unlawfully, but agents of the British State.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Jan 18 4.22pm

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

No, you just 'straw-manned' as it's a separate argument. The original point was about allowing licenced carry holders on school grounds as it would more likely SAVE lives, and lots of evidence (and common sense) indicates this.

I think that the important phrase here has to be that it will/may save more lives than it costs. This is the problem of the 'more guns solution', it best equation situation is that it would reduce the number of people killed, rather than prevent a situation.

Of course its hypothetical in the extreme. You have to assume that a) those guns are available b) those who have access to them are sufficently trained to respond and don't panic c) that the police responding don't shoot the armed individual d) that the armed staff are themselves not killed first e) that the armed individuals don't shoot the wrong people (given the panic)

The last two are significant. When we look at the background of these crimes, we see that they're planned and orchestrated by the perpetrators. Likely as not they'd start with eliminating the armed teacher / staff first (as it will likely be well known who at the school is an armed response trainee).

Plus they'd need to obtain those weapons following the incident. Handguns aren't really ideal, as most mass shootings tend to involve rifles, and assault weapons - and in a number of cases body armour. So realistically you're going to need to have Combat grade hardware locked up in the school, with ammo - Which is problematic in its own right

When we look at the Colombine shootings, those kids were prepaired, heavily armed and in possession of explosives, and followed a pattern of attack. They didn't just start shooting randomly.

Plus the entire place was in chaos of panic with kids running, hiding etc. Thats a very dangerous situation to be armed in.

The NRA based solutions aren't particually well thought out; and its not common sense when you think about it. The solution to tragedy of mass shootings is to at best reduce the number of kids killed in a school shooting.

Its a false arguement, because it ignores the contextual variables of the situation.

Of course you could make it illegal for anyone under 21 to own guns. Its odd that in many states you can own a military grade weapon, before you're trusted to be able to drink a beer.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 06 Jan 18 4.25pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

The IRA are a criminal organisation and terrorists. The British Government is a lawful state. There is an obligation on states to act lawfully, and enforce to rule of law, even when its politically inconvenient or unpopular.

Errrr....hang on....the same people there on that day....one found with a gun was put into governance......If you are going to elevate one set of murderers over what you consider another then yeah....get your money out mate....that lot murdered people even after the agreement.

That's why democracies lose wars to scum like them....and lawyers and post modernists gain.

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Those people killed on Bloody Sunday, weren't terrorists, they were innocent British Citizens, killed unlawfully, but agents of the British State.

'Unlawfully' I strongly disagree with you and all the apparatus that supports that decision. What happened was the fault of the British army in very difficult circumstances. What happened after that is a matter of disagreement.

Arresting ex British soldiers who had been fired upon doesn't stand in my book especially when you release murderers in the IRA.

Anyone joining the army today.....hell even the police needs to take a good long look at the type of people ruling over them. Maybe the next time the IRA plan to fire mortars at your residence and you rightly protect them....you should also remember how strongly these people back you.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jan 2018 4.31pm)

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Jan 18 9.48pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

'Unlawfully' I strongly disagree with you and all the apparatus that supports that decision. What happened was the fault of the British army in very difficult circumstances. What happened after that is a matter of disagreement.

Arresting ex British soldiers who had been fired upon doesn't stand in my book especially when you release murderers in the IRA.

Anyone joining the army today.....hell even the police needs to take a good long look at the type of people ruling over them. Maybe the next time the IRA plan to fire mortars at your residence and you rightly protect them....you should also remember how strongly these people back you.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jan 2018 4.31pm)

I think part of the good Friday agreement should have also been an amnesty for those who fired on Bloody Sunday - and an independent inquiry. Same as for the IRA, UVF UFF, INLA etc. Same rules apply.

I don't see the Good Friday as protecting the IRA, but protecting the ordinary people of Northern Ireland who were caught between the British, The Provos and the Loyalist Terrorist. In the end, it was for them, not the IRA or UVF, Sinn Fien or DUP etc that the Good Friday Agreement served.

The people who lived through the troubles, without picking up guns or bombs, and their kids. The others who benefited, were just necessary sacrifice.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 26 Jan 18 5.18pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Another example of the authoritarian left that is running California. It's slowly becoming a Communist state...

California Considers $1,000 fine or jail for waiters offering unsolicited plastic straws [Link]

 

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View Mr_Gristle's Profile Mr_Gristle Flag In the land of Whelk Eaters 26 Jan 18 5.32pm Send a Private Message to Mr_Gristle Add Mr_Gristle as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

Another example of the authoritarian left that is running California. It's slowly becoming a Communist state...

California Considers ,000 fine or jail for waiters offering unsolicited plastic straws [Link]

Not sure what's communist or even left wing about right-on rabid hipster authoritarianism.

Also, I note that one "lawmaker" does not a state make.

Having fixed that for you, I agree that the actual suggestion is totally bonkers :-)

 


Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 26 Jan 18 5.48pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Mr_Gristle

Not sure what's communist or even left wing about right-on rabid hipster authoritarianism.

Also, I note that one "lawmaker" does not a state make.

If the other lawmakers agree, then it is. Plus, you may not have seen the other laws passed here which I have posted in this thread.

Edited by Penge Eagle (26 Jan 2018 5.49pm)

 

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