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Does an object exist if no one observes it?

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 04 Jan 18 3.28pm

Originally posted by Park Road

Does your fist exist?

Yes. It exists as a lingusistcal construction to determine changes in the shape of my hand. As such there is no such thing as a fist in science, only a hand. Biologically, Chemically and Physically, there is no significant difference between a hand and a fist. The concept of fist really belongs more to social sciences and philosophical sciences (where its metaphorical interpretations have significance to social and psychological states).

 


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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 04 Jan 18 3.33pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Isn't Schrodinger's cat a failed attempt to disprove quantum theory that's disproven by the Copenhagen interpretation.

And better explained by the Uncertainity Principle, that the problem of measuring anything on a quantum scale is that what ever you use to detect the particle, will have to interact with the particle (hence you can either know where it is, or how fast its going, but never both - not because of the act of observation, but that observation on a quantum scale requires that you cause a reaction - i.e. in order to measure a quantum particle, you have to 'hit it' with another particle to 'observe it' (its not like measurement on a relative scale). Any attempt to measure something so fundamentally small, will alter its state. Where as you can place a tape measure on a brick with no worry.

Economies of scale in variables or something like that.

I suppose that in itself tells us something about our current and potentially permanent relationship with things beyond the physical.
Trying to measure it is like trying to eat soup with a fork or perhaps trying to thread a needle in boxing gloves.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Jan 18 3.36pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Isn't Schrodinger's cat a failed attempt to disprove quantum theory that's disproven by the Copenhagen interpretation.

And better explained by the Uncertainity Principle, that the problem of measuring anything on a quantum scale is that what ever you use to detect the particle, will have to interact with the particle (hence you can either know where it is, or how fast its going, but never both - not because of the act of observation, but that observation on a quantum scale requires that you cause a reaction - i.e. in order to measure a quantum particle, you have to 'hit it' with another particle to 'observe it' (its not like measurement on a relative scale). Any attempt to measure something so fundamentally small, will alter its state. Where as you can place a tape measure on a brick with no worry.

Economies of scale in variables or something like that.

When you put detectors in front of the double slit experiment there was an argument for this.

However the results of the delayed choice quantum eraser appear to show that this interaction isn't responsible for wavefunction collapse.

The detectors are behind the slits and both outcomes of a wave and particle result are possible from detectors....so I'm imagining the use of detectors which still give you a wave result discounts this.

The deciding factor appears to be certainty for the path to the detector which produces a determined location as opposed to an unknown path which produces the wave.....I'd recommend you watch the video on the 'delayed choice quantum eraser' experiments linked to on the opening post.

It's fascinating.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 04 Jan 18 3.46pm

Originally posted by Park Road

Does your fist exist?

Make a fist. Look at it; surely there’s a fist in front of you. Now open your hand. The fist is gone. What happened? The particles are the exact same, but their arrangement slightly changed. At some point between open and closed, your fist disappeared.

Or, “it” was never there to begin with.

This brings up another crucial problem. Let’s assume that you’re trying to argue the following is true: objects take up space. We also know:

a ) that object is made up of particles, and
b ) those particles also take up space.

So the question is this: does an object occupy the exact same space as the particles which make it up?

Either way you answer – yes or no – creates difficult problems.

Let’s say the answer is yes: objects occupy the exact same space as the particles which constitute them. This implies that every object has an exact number of particles. When that number changes, the object changes. When your chair gets a scratch, it would no longer remain the same chair, as it lost some constituent particles. It would become a chair-with-a-scratch. Even if you gently rubbed the chair, microscopic particles would be removed, and its metaphysical existence would change again. That means a practically infinite number of objects exist, and they are constantly popping in and out of existence with the slightest breeze. In fact, no concrete “object” would ever exist for more than an instant, as atoms are constantly bumping into each other. This scenario is logically possible, but it strikes me as utterly absurd and unnecessary.

So then we’re left with the answer being no: objects do not occupy the exact same space as the particles which constitute them. But this might even be more peculiar. What would a chair occupy space with, if not particles? Pure chair-ness? Concrete space, not filled by particles, but filled with some kind of non-particle-spatial-stuff. I can’t even imagine what that stuff would be.

This would also imply that the particles are unnecessary, and we could remove them without changing the chair at all. Take a chair, remove the physical particles, and you’re still left with a chair. But this is preposterous! I am unwilling to posit the existence of ghost-chairs. Surely, if we throw the chair into a fire and let it burn to ashes, it doesn’t remain a chair any longer, and it doesn’t take up space.

The only resolution is to say that objects do not take up space – they are not physical.

Quantum particles existed prior to the existance of space and time as a dimension - so this is problematic I'd imagine. Which is exactly the problem of wave partical duality and the lack of a grand unified theory. We can know how objects behave in terms of relative space, and in quantum scale - but marrying up the two is incredibly complicated.

Scale is a key issue in measurement, as demonstrated by the fact that any measurement is only as accurate as the means of measurement (ie the smaller the scale of measurement, the more accurate it is, but there is always a smaller scale that you can use - culminating in mathematical problems like the Koch curve where you can draw an infinately long line in a finite space).

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Jan 18 4.00pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

culminating in mathematical problems like the Koch curve where you can draw an infinately long line in a finite space).

Surely the Planck length would mean that you couldn't?

 


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View regal_eagle's Profile regal_eagle Flag somewhere 04 Jan 18 4.40pm Send a Private Message to regal_eagle Add regal_eagle as a friend

No.

It's all a simulation.

Get over it.

Not that 'it' actually exists.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 04 Jan 18 5.28pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Surely the Planck length would mean that you couldn't?

Pure maths or something innit, presumably there is a limit in reality (such as the Planck Length) - but that wouldn't be a factor in pure maths paradims as they're not going into physics territory.

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Jan 18 5.39pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by regal_eagle

No.

It's all a simulation.

Get over it.

Not that 'it' actually exists.


Is it as good as Arma 3 that's all I care about.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Jan 18 5.43pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Pure maths or something innit, presumably there is a limit in reality (such as the Planck Length) - but that wouldn't be a factor in pure maths paradims as they're not going into physics territory.

When you realise the scale of what we can physically detect using technology and compare it to how small the planck length is.

Man oh man.....it's a frigging comparative universe in scale.

Could dimensions be hiding there?...feck knows....pass the bubblegum.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Jan 2018 5.44pm)

 


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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 04 Jan 18 6.17pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

I can smell something.....

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Jan 18 6.21pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I can smell something.....

Check the kitchen.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 04 Jan 18 7.29pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Check the kitchen.

It ain't coming from there.

 

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