Free speech and Enoch Powell

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Hrolf The Ganger 13 Apr 18 3.33pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC No defection here, at least not from me. Also I'd agree that a lot of what he has said came true. But crucially people on both sides never seem to properly look at the issue of immigration in context (left – negatives, right – positives) Another point I was thinking about is the irony that the speech most likely created, enhanced or contributed to the very issues he was talking about. Maybe that was intentional. Maybe it wasn't. Either way it's hard to believe it had no impact at all. The 'right' context is one where all sides points of view can be heard, whatever the platform, be it the BBC or somewhere else. As you're continually fixated on the left/right dynamic, then in a way where both the left and the right points of view can be heard and debated in this case. I'm repeating myself a little, as I just posted about this point. Edited by SW19 CPFC (13 Apr 2018 3.23pm) Edited by SW19 CPFC (13 Apr 2018 3.23pm) I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion. All that was described in his speech was present then and is present on a much larger scale now. The politics of the time might have played a part in his motivations for making the speech but that is rather unimportant given that he was correct and we are seeing exactly these effects in 2018.
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Hrolf The Ganger

13 Apr 18 3.33pm

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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

No defection here, at least not from me. Also I'd agree that a lot of what he has said came true. But crucially people on both sides never seem to properly look at the issue of immigration in context (left – negatives, right – positives)

Another point I was thinking about is the irony that the speech most likely created, enhanced or contributed to the very issues he was talking about. Maybe that was intentional. Maybe it wasn't. Either way it's hard to believe it had no impact at all.

The 'right' context is one where all sides points of view can be heard, whatever the platform, be it the BBC or somewhere else. As you're continually fixated on the left/right dynamic, then in a way where both the left and the right points of view can be heard and debated in this case. I'm repeating myself a little, as I just posted about this point.

Edited by SW19 CPFC (13 Apr 2018 3.23pm)

I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion. All that was described in his speech was present then and is present on a much larger scale now. The politics of the time might have played a part in his motivations for making the speech but that is rather unimportant given that he was correct and we are seeing exactly these effects in 2018.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 13 Apr 18 3.43pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays You are comparing apples with oranges. Japan isn't offering a pathway to citizenship for these workers.....It isn't the same thing. It doesn't even call them immigrants but guest workers. Also the numbers it has incoming are nothing like the same. I have no issues with foreign workers....we have always had them.....I think you are conflating two separate issues. Japan is very protective of its national identity and doesn't treat it like a joke....unlike our own politicians and far left. However, I commend you on your input to the debate as a rational voice of the left on this matter. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Apr 2018 3.29pm) Foreign workers are still immigrants though. Even if they only live in a country for 10 years, then leave, they still live within communities, bring their own culture, etc. etc. On the citizenship point, I'm not up to speed on that, so couldn't really comment. As I said, Japan does a great job of controlling who it lets in, skilled workers etc. and heavily limits 'standard' migrants and refugees. And I'd agree, there is way more that should be done to implement a proper strategy on immigration in this country. That's a given. I already mentioned the fact that Japan is very protective and insular, but their economy is unsustainable without a big change to their immigration policy. This article is very interesting – even suggesting that a referendum on immigration may be needed in the near future as gradually increasing it is fine, but it won't be long before the population become aware of what is happening and rail against it. [Link] Hopefully they'll have learnt from our own referendum campaign debacle (on both sides) and make it clear to the less aware amongst us exactly what they are voting for. Essentially they are going to have to deal with larger volumes of people sooner rather than later. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 13 Apr 18 3.43pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You are comparing apples with oranges. Japan isn't offering a pathway to citizenship for these workers.....It isn't the same thing. It doesn't even call them immigrants but guest workers. Also the numbers it has incoming are nothing like the same.

I have no issues with foreign workers....we have always had them.....I think you are conflating two separate issues.

Japan is very protective of its national identity and doesn't treat it like a joke....unlike our own politicians and far left.

However, I commend you on your input to the debate as a rational voice of the left on this matter.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Apr 2018 3.29pm)

Foreign workers are still immigrants though. Even if they only live in a country for 10 years, then leave, they still live within communities, bring their own culture, etc. etc. On the citizenship point, I'm not up to speed on that, so couldn't really comment.

As I said, Japan does a great job of controlling who it lets in, skilled workers etc. and heavily limits 'standard' migrants and refugees. And I'd agree, there is way more that should be done to implement a proper strategy on immigration in this country. That's a given.

I already mentioned the fact that Japan is very protective and insular, but their economy is unsustainable without a big change to their immigration policy. This article is very interesting – even suggesting that a referendum on immigration may be needed in the near future as gradually increasing it is fine, but it won't be long before the population become aware of what is happening and rail against it.

[Link]

Hopefully they'll have learnt from our own referendum campaign debacle (on both sides) and make it clear to the less aware amongst us exactly what they are voting for.

Essentially they are going to have to deal with larger volumes of people sooner rather than later.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 13 Apr 18 3.47pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion. All that was described in his speech was present then and is present on a much larger scale now. The politics of the time might have played a part in his motivations for making the speech but that is rather unimportant given that he was correct and we are seeing exactly these effects in 2018. It enhanced the 'them and us' narrative, and was delivered in quite an aggressive, emotive way. Again, I'm not talking about the content of the speech, but who was saying it, how it was said, and a whole range of other factors that are pretty important. That's enough to add to already tense feeling between two groups. To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying it caused the issues, but it might have added to them/created new ones. It can't have had no effect on the situation at all. Do you not appreciate that line of argument? Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 13 Apr 18 3.47pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It enhanced the 'them and us' narrative, and was delivered in quite an aggressive, emotive way. Again, I'm not talking about the content of the speech, but who was saying it, how it was said, and a whole range of other factors that are pretty important.

That's enough to add to already tense feeling between two groups. To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying it caused the issues, but it might have added to them/created new ones. It can't have had no effect on the situation at all. Do you not appreciate that line of argument?

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Apr 18 11.04pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC It enhanced the 'them and us' narrative, and was delivered in quite an aggressive, emotive way. Again, I'm not talking about the content of the speech, but who was saying it, how it was said, and a whole range of other factors that are pretty important. That's enough to add to already tense feeling between two groups. To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying it caused the issues, but it might have added to them/created new ones. It can't have had no effect on the situation at all. Do you not appreciate that line of argument? No. Why should the truth be silenced just to maintain docility? Of course, people need to be protected from harm but the whole approach since the speech has been to persecute anyone who objects to government policy regarding immigration.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Apr 18 11.04pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

No. Why should the truth be silenced just to maintain docility? Of course, people need to be protected from harm but the whole approach since the speech has been to persecute anyone who objects to government policy regarding immigration.

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Stirlingsays 14 Apr 18 11.12pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC Foreign workers are still immigrants though. Even if they only live in a country for 10 years, then leave, they still live within communities, bring their own culture, etc. etc. On the citizenship point, I'm not up to speed on that, so couldn't really comment. The fact that the immigrants can't stay and in effect it is very hard to become a Japanese citizen....that's a massive difference to this argument. With respect if you are going to argue on this and say that Japan is resigning itself to immigrants you should know that. It's true Japan is upping its foreign workers....but that's about it. But they are transient, Japan is jealously protecting its national identity. No doubt, lots of Japanese have seen and are observing what Europe has done to itself....they see the problems it has and how it's going to get worse down the line. So like I said originally, Japan is a far better model. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Apr 2018 11.39am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Apr 18 11.12pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

The fact that the immigrants can't stay and in effect it is very hard to become a Japanese citizen....that's a massive difference to this argument.

With respect if you are going to argue on this and say that Japan is resigning itself to immigrants you should know that. It's true Japan is upping its foreign workers....but that's about it.

But they are transient, Japan is jealously protecting its national identity. No doubt, lots of Japanese have seen and are observing what Europe has done to itself....they see the problems it has and how it's going to get worse down the line.

So like I said originally, Japan is a far better model.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Apr 2018 11.39am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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cryrst The garden of England 15 Apr 18 9.38am
This was 60 years ago. Can it really not be used as a positive. Prove the speech wrong and actually accept we think and feel different things. Powell is being proved right through our total tunnel vision. Let it go and move on. Don't use negatives as a positive for an argument. As it stands it appears everything he said was right. How backward are we.
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cryrst

The garden of England 15 Apr 18 9.38am

This was 60 years ago.
Can it really not be used as a positive.
Prove the speech wrong and actually accept we think and feel different things.
Powell is being proved right through our total tunnel vision.
Let it go and move on.
Don't use negatives as a positive for an argument.
As it stands it appears everything he said was right.
How backward are we.

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Hrolf The Ganger 15 Apr 18 11.30am
Originally posted by cryrst This was 60 years ago. Can it really not be used as a positive. Prove the speech wrong and actually accept we think and feel different things. Powell is being proved right through our total tunnel vision. Let it go and move on. Don't use negatives as a positive for an argument. As it stands it appears everything he said was right. How backward are we. So we should delude ourselves in the interests of race relations? Oh my.
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Hrolf The Ganger

15 Apr 18 11.30am

Originally posted by cryrst

So we should delude ourselves in the interests of race relations?

Oh my.

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cryrst The garden of England 15 Apr 18 11.45am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger So we should delude ourselves in the interests of race relations? Oh my. That's not what I meant holf If someone says you can't do something you try your hardest to prove them wrong Same as prove the speech to be wrong in time. Sadly I'm not as linguistically talented as some posters.
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cryrst

The garden of England 15 Apr 18 11.45am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

So we should delude ourselves in the interests of race relations?

Oh my.

That's not what I meant holf
If someone says you can't do something you try your hardest to prove them wrong
Same as prove the speech to be wrong in time.
Sadly I'm not as linguistically talented as some posters.

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Stirlingsays 15 Apr 18 11.57am
Originally posted by cryrst That's not what I meant holf If someone says you can't do something you try your hardest to prove them wrong Same as prove the speech to be wrong in time. Sadly I'm not as linguistically talented as some posters. That's been tried. I grew up quite liberal on these matters....it's only as an old git battle hardened by life that I'm realised that most of that concept is a ideological lie. Most of the politicians who push it don't actually live with the negative consequences of high immigration. I think this country tried really hard and some still try hard to assimilate, welcome and tolerate difference....It worked with those who always wanted to assimilate in the first place. But the reality is for a lot of people it's been nothing but a disaster. Their public spaces now seem foreign to them. Those that didn't like it and could afford it moved out or moved to wealthy almost conceptually gated communities. Multiculturalism doesn't work on the ground. Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Apr 2018 12.01pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

15 Apr 18 11.57am

Originally posted by cryrst

That's been tried. I grew up quite liberal on these matters....it's only as an old git battle hardened by life that I'm realised that most of that concept is a ideological lie. Most of the politicians who push it don't actually live with the negative consequences of high immigration.

I think this country tried really hard and some still try hard to assimilate, welcome and tolerate difference....It worked with those who always wanted to assimilate in the first place. But the reality is for a lot of people it's been nothing but a disaster. Their public spaces now seem foreign to them. Those that didn't like it and could afford it moved out or moved to wealthy almost conceptually gated communities. Multiculturalism doesn't work on the ground.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Apr 2018 12.01pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Hrolf The Ganger 15 Apr 18 1.30pm
Originally posted by cryrst That's not what I meant holf If someone says you can't do something you try your hardest to prove them wrong Same as prove the speech to be wrong in time. Sadly I'm not as linguistically talented as some posters. So a self fulfilling prophecy? Or just fighting against the inevitable? Frankly, I see this kind of suggestion as clouding the issue. The fact is that despite all propaganda telling us to the contrary, Powell's vision of the future has come true. Obviously, people of various creeds will view this differently. Self interest prevails in all things.
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Hrolf The Ganger

15 Apr 18 1.30pm

Originally posted by cryrst

So a self fulfilling prophecy? Or just fighting against the inevitable?
Frankly, I see this kind of suggestion as clouding the issue. The fact is that despite all propaganda telling us to the contrary, Powell's vision of the future has come true. Obviously, people of various creeds will view this differently. Self interest prevails in all things.

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cryrst The garden of England 15 Apr 18 1.48pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger So a self fulfilling prophecy? Or just fighting against the inevitable? Frankly, I see this kind of suggestion as clouding the issue. The fact is that despite all propaganda telling us to the contrary, Powell's vision of the future has come true. Obviously, people of various creeds will view this differently. Self interest prevails in all things. That was my point. Suggesting and expecting are two different hopes. Any of us could be on the end of the failure. That is the self interest I've got. You me my kids your kids. Let's hope not but alas someone reasonably close to all of us WILL be the result of it not being tried.
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cryrst

The garden of England 15 Apr 18 1.48pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

That was my point.
Suggesting and expecting are two different hopes.
Any of us could be on the end of the failure.
That is the self interest I've got.
You me my kids your kids.
Let's hope not but alas someone reasonably close to all of us WILL be the result of it not being tried.

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dannyboy1978 16 Apr 18 6.37am
Financially Britain is better off with immigration but no one on the left can argue that's it's come with many consequences. For that reason I think Powell was partially right. So for me it's not colour it's integration which is the problem. Government know this and cant change it so in those communuties who is charge? (Whip hand) [Link] U.K. PM David Cameron: Migrants Must Learn To Speak English - Newsweek [Link] › uk-prime-minister... [Link] Edited by dannyboy1978 (16 Apr 2018 6.38am)
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dannyboy1978

16 Apr 18 6.37am

Financially Britain is better off with immigration but no one on the left can argue that's it's come with many consequences. For that reason I think Powell was partially right. So for me it's not colour it's integration which is the problem. Government know this and cant change it so in those communuties who is charge? (Whip hand)

[Link]

U.K. PM David Cameron: Migrants Must Learn To Speak English - Newsweek

[Link] › uk-prime-minister...

[Link]

Edited by dannyboy1978 (16 Apr 2018 6.38am)

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