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Why is this a BBC top story? (LOCKED)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 06 Mar 20 9.48am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by becky


Presumably then, that would have to also include all the Church of England schools, who were and remain the very foundation of free education in this country, and were teaching our children 'British values' before Parliament even existed in this country.

Baby & bathwater springs to mind.

Yes it would. In practice most, if not all, of the C of E schools have little or no influence from the Church these days. They are Church schools in name only, owning the land but not influencing the education. There is no baby in that bath anymore.

Catholic schools tend to have more involvement but even there it is more symbolic than actual these days.

Stopping parents home educating for religious reasons is actually much more important in my opinion because the level of inspection is more problematic.

Ensuring all children, from all backgrounds, get to experience and understand our values is the aim. That there might be some minor collateral damage to achieve that is a price worth paying, in my view.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 06 Mar 20 10.08am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You want to close all faith schools but then you defend Islamic teaching.

Show me where I have "defended Islamic teaching"? I oppose ALL religious teaching that preaches hate.

You also refuse to accept the link between Muslims and mass rape of Europeans.

I refuse to accept a link between ALL Muslims and anything because it is simply not credible.

You think that hiding the truth was in the public interest.

Whilst hiding the truth can be in the public interest it is not a concern here. What is an issue is that the "truth" is not being told. It is being distorted and twisted by Islamophobes.

Despite the scale of these crimes, you are happy to see thousands upon thousands more Muslims enter this country, rapidly turning this country Muslim because you think that our culture will eventually 'educate' them.

Untrue. I have never said whether I am happy or unhappy. All I have commented on is the impracticality of your own suggestions and that we need to accept we are where we are and then find ways to make things better. Ways that stand a chance of working.

You are happy to see this nation's citizens and their culture replaced and even deny any of it is happening because it fits with your world view.

Of course if that were true I would not be happy. It isn't though remotely true. It is just right wing rhetoric and fear mongering propaganda.

This all sounds like the insane wittering of a delusional old liberal.

Enjoying the military two step?

I say to hell with your world view. It's time to wake up and reject your kind of sentiment and act now so that our children's children can live in a Britain that remotely resembles the one that people worked, fought and died for.
Not a crime ridden, overcrowded, under resourced, unsafe Englistan.

Thereby lies the view of the confirmed Islamophobe. Evolution will ensure that in a few thousand years your successors, although small in number and living in backwaters, will evolve to have eyes in the back of their heads to ensure they are always gazing backwards. Meanwhile society will have moved on and mainly consist of a religious free homogeneous human race. The fittest always survive.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (06 Mar 2020 10.21am)

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag Chatham 06 Mar 20 10.13am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

You love labelling people dont you!
Being perfect it must be easy though.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 06 Mar 20 10.20am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Oh dear! Even more misrepresentation. Someone needs to go to Specsavers!

Where have I said that it been said that the majority of Muslims are for grooming gangs?

I haven't.

The idea that Islam is incapable of change is patently untrue. Whilst fundamentalists don't change in any religious setting, others can and do. Just read some of the stories told by other posters about their own experiences for the verification of that fact.

Neither do I expect to change the right wing fundamentalists who post here. I just try to expose their hypocrisy from time to time. Maybe the less extreme members will gain some insight from that, but that would be a bonus.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 06 Mar 20 10.32am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Yes it would. In practice most, if not all, of the C of E schools have little or no influence from the Church these days. They are Church schools in name only, owning the land but not influencing the education. There is no baby in that bath anymore.

Catholic schools tend to have more involvement but even there it is more symbolic than actual these days.

Stopping parents home educating for religious reasons is actually much more important in my opinion because the level of inspection is more problematic.

Ensuring all children, from all backgrounds, get to experience and understand our values is the aim. That there might be some minor collateral damage to achieve that is a price worth paying, in my view.

Quite a risk though from people who you’ve claimed are likely to become radicalised by one word in a newspaper story. Isn’t this proposal going to radicalise far more?
Who would be suffering this “collateral damage”?


 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag Kent 06 Mar 20 10.36am Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

We are largely on the same page.

I have no sympathies for Islam either, despite the frequent attempt by the Islamophobes to suggest the opposite. I regard all religious belief as past it's time and an encumbrance to a peaceful world. Those who try to justify criminal activity because of a belief need to be stopped and we must insist that teaching that supports it ceases too. I would close all faith based schools and teach British values to all children. No compromises. No home schooling for religious reasons.

Demanding that all religious leaders acknowledge the need to adhere to British values and join us in trying to eradicate evil seems sensible to me. There must be ways to apply pressure to achieve this.

Putting Islam "on trial" by demanding that it's teachers comply with our expectations (alongside those of every other religion) is fine with me.

My primary focus in these long exchanges is whether continuing to describe the criminal grooming gangs as "Muslim", "Asian" or "Islamic" is actually beneficial to making things better. It certainly helps the Islamophobes feel better but does it help the victims of the crimes or the Police who are trying to find the criminals and bring them to justice? Just because something might be true doesn't mean it is wise to keep on bringing it up.

My view is unless a positive impact can be proved then we ought not do it, even if not to do so has a marginal effect.

Apologies for not responding till now I was otherwise occupied.

So again, I understand your point and to an extent the angle from which you are coming. I can be sceptical that those professing a more 'lefty' approach to things as doing so under a misguided mission of self promotion and fulfilment coupled with an indoctrination to leftist propoganda but will spare you that nomenclature so as not to obscure my own point but also because frankly I do not know you beyond the exchanging of a couple of posts.

I would argue that we are not that far apart in our thinking but I am perhaps more sceptical but certainly disagree with the first highlighted point in that I do not think we will reach an understanding with this faith at any point in time. It has existed over a millennia and unlikely to change now.

The second highlighted section I would argue very strongly that yes, it does help to assign a factual label to something to help understand it. In no way in any context can you solve a problem through denying it. Perhaps a more granular narrative is needed around it for explanatory reason but far more damage is being done to isolate the crime from the identity and ideology of the perpetrators than actually saying 'this is where we are, this is what is happening, this is where the problem lies'.

Finally, you mention Islamophobes which I think is relevant. Unfortunately, just as you will get leftist devotees who will try to whitewash anything as you will also get this from the right. Both these kind of people can be categorised IMO the same as any religious extremists as I do not care much for the opinion of anyone who is representing an ideology and not speaking rationally from their own experience.

My biggest fear of this whole thing is, that the left gets far more media coverage and support and that anyone who dare speak against this ideology can be labelled as an 'islamaphobe'. Occasionally you will get someone from the far right, who is often not too clever, and the left uses this as propoganda do discredit anything you say.

Most people do not recognise this, but we are living in what is close to an authoritarian state at the moment. Freedom of speech has been massively suppressed to the extent that even with a rational argument you can be vilified or even prosecuted by our 21st century thought police. It is almost impossible to air any concerns whatsoever. I would therefore be very careful not to use the word 'Islamaphobe' as this is a quasi-fascist moniker to tar anyone with a brush who speaks out against ironically labelled 'liberal' ideas.

 


Here's to you the famous red and blue.....

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 06 Mar 20 10.59am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Quite a risk though from people who you’ve claimed are likely to become radicalised by one word in a newspaper story. Isn’t this proposal going to radicalise far more?
Who would be suffering this “collateral damage”?


No-one would be radicalised simply by using the words in a newspaper headline! That's not, and never has been, my point. It contributes to widening divisions and not building bridges and ought therefore be avoided. It's though just one brick in the wall and not the bulldozer knocking it down.

We all suffer some collateral damage by having something withdrawn but as we gain more than we lose, it's worthwhile.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 06 Mar 20 11.16am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Apologies for not responding till now I was otherwise occupied.

So again, I understand your point and to an extent the angle from which you are coming. I can be sceptical that those professing a more 'lefty' approach to things as doing so under a misguided mission of self promotion and fulfilment coupled with an indoctrination to leftist propoganda but will spare you that nomenclature so as not to obscure my own point but also because frankly I do not know you beyond the exchanging of a couple of posts.

I would argue that we are not that far apart in our thinking but I am perhaps more sceptical but certainly disagree with the first highlighted point in that I do not think we will reach an understanding with this faith at any point in time. It has existed over a millennia and unlikely to change now.

The second highlighted section I would argue very strongly that yes, it does help to assign a factual label to something to help understand it. In no way in any context can you solve a problem through denying it. Perhaps a more granular narrative is needed around it for explanatory reason but far more damage is being done to isolate the crime from the identity and ideology of the perpetrators than actually saying 'this is where we are, this is what is happening, this is where the problem lies'.

Finally, you mention Islamophobes which I think is relevant. Unfortunately, just as you will get leftist devotees who will try to whitewash anything as you will also get this from the right. Both these kind of people can be categorised IMO the same as any religious extremists as I do not care much for the opinion of anyone who is representing an ideology and not speaking rationally from their own experience.

My biggest fear of this whole thing is, that the left gets far more media coverage and support and that anyone who dare speak against this ideology can be labelled as an 'islamaphobe'. Occasionally you will get someone from the far right, who is often not too clever, and the left uses this as propoganda do discredit anything you say.

Most people do not recognise this, but we are living in what is close to an authoritarian state at the moment. Freedom of speech has been massively suppressed to the extent that even with a rational argument you can be vilified or even prosecuted by our 21st century thought police. It is almost impossible to air any concerns whatsoever. I would therefore be very careful not to use the word 'Islamaphobe' as this is a quasi-fascist moniker to tar anyone with a brush who speaks out against ironically labelled 'liberal' ideas.

Apologies unnecessary.

I won't answer every point as I think we have run our course now. I would though just say that, contrary to the opinions of many here, I am very far from being a "lefty". I am a social democrat who has traditionally voted Tory, although not last time. I agree we won't reach an agreement with the fundamentalists but we can and do reach accommodations with the many who are gradually becoming adjusted to our way of life. Like your colleagues/mates. Sharing work, laughter and experiences are human life at it's best and behind everything we are all humans. I am not without hope.

Of course I agree that not everyone who speaks out on this issue is an Islamophobe but there are enough that are to be a concern and for their attitudes to be called out. I don't see freedom of speech under threat myself. I think there is more opportunity these days for all views to be expressed in a variety of ways, including moaning about the suppression of free speech! What there is today, that didn't exist before, is a recognition that hate speech can lead to undesirable consequences and therefore needs to be monitored and controlled. That's not suppressing freedom of speech at all. No society can operate without law, unless it desires anarchy. So if it is unlawful to say things which create harm then those things cannot be said in public.

I do though agree that we are moving towards an authoritarian state in other ways, but that's because of populism and maybe not for discussion now!

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 06 Mar 20 11.31am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

No-one would be radicalised simply by using the words in a newspaper headline! That's not, and never has been, my point. It contributes to widening divisions and not building bridges and ought therefore be avoided. It's though just one brick in the wall and not the bulldozer knocking it down.

We all suffer some collateral damage by having something withdrawn but as we gain more than we lose, it's worthwhile.

So when you said...

By describing the gangs as "Muslim" or "Islamic" is to play straight into the hands of those who wish to portray the Islamic community as under attack and to radicalise it even more than it is now.

...you didn’t mean radicalise in any real sense.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 06 Mar 20 11.46am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

So when you said...

By describing the gangs as "Muslim" or "Islamic" is to play straight into the hands of those who wish to portray the Islamic community as under attack and to radicalise it even more than it is now.

...you didn’t mean radicalise in any real sense.

I meant exactly what I wrote in my previous post which is, by the way, completely consistent with the quote above. That there are some who try to portray the Islamic community as under attack is beyond question. Giving them any weapons is therefore foolish, no matter how small they might seem to us.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 06 Mar 20 11.48am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I meant exactly what I wrote in my previous post which is, by the way, completely consistent with the quote above. That there are some who try to portray the Islamic community as under attack is beyond question. Giving them any weapons is therefore foolish, no matter how small they might seem to us.

So will it radicalise them or not? You are saying both it will and it won’t.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 06 Mar 20 12.28pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Thereby lies the view of the confirmed Islamophobe.


Edited by Wisbech Eagle (06 Mar 2020 10.21am)

So you support all Islamic views, teaching and behaviour then? Because that is what you are suggesting we must do to avoid being accused of 'Islamaphobia' (made up Lefty word).
I reserve the right to criticise and condemn any behaviour or ideas from any source.
If you wish to restrict free speech and the right to protect one's own interests then you are part of the problem.

 

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