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May 26 2022 3.22pm

Putin

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 22 Mar 22 7.18am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

A sensible voice on this is Russell Brand. He obviously isn't a fan of Putin but he's not a fan of ra ra war either.

[Link]

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 22 Mar 22 10.16am Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

has 'The West' been sowing the seeds of political dissent in Ukraine for decades ?

using money to stir up the sh1t.

either through NGO political movements & street protests, or through terrorism ?

 


7 points from Manchester this season

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 22 Mar 22 10.17am Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

Trump was right about the belligerent West and its constant Wars.

Trump says he would send nuclear submarines to go 'up and down' Russia's coast to pressure Putin - [Link]

Quote Former President Donald Trump said on Monday that the US should put pressure on Russian President Vladimir Putin by sending its nuclear submarines to ply the Russian coast.

"And we say, 'Oh, he's a nuclear power.' But we're a greater nuclear power. We have the greatest submarines in the world, the most powerful machines ever built," he told the host Stuart Varney.

"You should say, 'Look, you mention that word one more time, we're going to send them over and we'll be coasting back and forth, up and down your coast," Trump said. "You can't let this tragedy continue. You can't let these, these thousands of people die."

I'm not sure that Trump's words are on less of a war footing than others right now. If anything, NATO are sticking to their red lines and Trump has repeatedly inferred that he would seek to escalate in this situation.


And again attacking Nato while describing Putin's invasions of multiple nations as 'tending to his garden' is ludicrous.


Edited by BlueJay (22 Mar 2022 3.30pm)

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 22 Mar 22 10.34am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You're right I don't like to repeat myself, but as it's you I'll go over my perspective one more time. For brevity I'll just focus on the Putin stuff rather than the disaster of a new cold war and what it actually means.

I would disagree with the view that western policy had no affect on Putin's change of attitude towards it.

I would agree that Putin rules Russia as you'd expect a KGB agent to rule it.....like a mafia state. I would also agree that this is his war and while I've increasingly grown concerned over the Ukrainian leadership it is Putin who is responsible for the death and destruction.

However, I don't agree with the concepts promoted that he's mad or irrational. That doesn't make sense to me personally, that's the media relying upon people just nodding along to whatever they say and completely omitting the Russian perspective in the history since the break up of the Soviet Union.

To get a sense of my position we have to go back to the Berlin wall coming down and what the situation was then. Essentially you had a cold war....which was two empires...The US, with its main Nato arm and the Warsaw pack, which was the Soviet empire.

So to understand today, you have to understand 1990, when the US were trying to convince the Russians to give up East Berlin.

A link to a lecture given years ago that predicts where we are today and the bad faith that led us here.

[Link]

A link to a site showing the map of Europe in 1990 and links to documents of assurances given. It also has links to the lies told to the Russians back in the nineties. I had a better link to the actual documents that physically exist in Washington but I've lost it...this will have to do.

[Link]

My perspective is that both western and russian elites had a duty to act in the best interests of peace for both their peoples. Everything should have been done in the spirit of partnership with the west interested in the Russian economy being successful in its transition, just as the US was careful after WW2 in Germany with the Marshall plan, to ensure that Hitler mark two didn't emerge.

What in effect happened was that the west took advantage of Russian weakness, Yeltsin created the oligarchs to help him and that robbed the economy...all supported by the west, as Yeltsin was their man...living standards arrowed down. That produced and saw poverty in Russia, which in turn led to Putin...who Yeltsin himself promoted twice....Putin always had bad faith and a decline in living standards to point at and blame the west for.

Putin for all his problems, took the power away from the oligarchs turned the Russian economy around....here is a link to the improvements in living standards under Putin.

[Link]

Putin wasn't anti western when he took over, he apparently asked Clinton and Nato officials about joining Nato but was rebuffed. He offered the use of his bases after the 9/11 attacks....He attended the WEF, he can be seen with western leaders for many years...that is not the action of someone who wanted cold war 2.

No, Nato refusing to act bilaterally, putting weapons facing Russia into former republics and forgetting just how important Russia is both militarily and economically did that......it changed Putin and apparently the 2014 coup in Ukraine (which I believe had western interference) was his last straw.

Even if the war hadn't happened the argument isn't that Putin is good.....He isn't. He murders dissidents, has destroyed freedom of speech (though several posters on here would like the same for the west) and even though he is a social conservative I can't support any of that.

However that's hardly an issue for the west who have been dealing with and toadying along with the Saudis for decades.....No the issue is that our western elites acted in bad faith and instead of working with Russia, directly worked against them....keeping the flame of the cold war alive instead of extinguishing it for good.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Mar 2022 5.33pm)

Yes, thanks for that.

I agree that Putin is not mad or even irrational. However, he is much changed by so many years of unchallenged power in a culture that has only really known authoritarian government. He is the living, breathing definition of the effect of power corrupting.

And I see your point about the mistakes the West (mainly USA) made in Russia. Not the first mistake on the international stage by US governments of both persuasion. Afghanistan. Helped hoof out the Soviets; and then abandoned the country to warlord rule. Iraq. Overthrew a vile regime only to inherit (and then abandon) the hornets nest that regime had been suppressing for years. Outlawing the party and then dismantling the Republican Guard (who then morphed into ISIS) was rank idiocy. As if the de-Nazification policies that worked in Germany in 1945 could just be transferred over.

The US has never accepted responsibility for either problem that were largely of their creation.

And so to Russia. There I don't think the issue was one of their creation, as such. Instead, it is one that could have been dealt with by better diplomacy, more trust and a great deal less crowing about how the West "won" the Cold War. To make countries happy and stable you trade them into wealth and open up your borders and arms to them. Sadly the West did no such thing.

We screwed up.

Again.

So on that (if I understand your view) we do agree.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 22 Mar 22 10.57am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Yes, thanks for that.

I agree that Putin is not mad or even irrational. However, he is much changed by so many years of unchallenged power in a culture that has only really known authoritarian government. He is the living, breathing definition of the effect of power corrupting.

And I see your point about the mistakes the West (mainly USA) made in Russia. Not the first mistake on the international stage by US governments of both persuasion. Afghanistan. Helped hoof out the Soviets; and then abandoned the country to warlord rule. Iraq. Overthrew a vile regime only to inherit (and then abandon) the hornets nest that regime had been suppressing for years. Outlawing the party and then dismantling the Republican Guard (who then morphed into ISIS) was rank idiocy. As if the de-Nazification policies that worked in Germany in 1945 could just be transferred over.

The US has never accepted responsibility for either problem that were largely of their creation.

And so to Russia. There I don't think the issue was one of their creation, as such. Instead, it is one that could have been dealt with by better diplomacy, more trust and a great deal less crowing about how the West "won" the Cold War. To make countries happy and stable you trade them into wealth and open up your borders and arms to them. Sadly the West did no such thing.

We screwed up.

Again.

So on that (if I understand your view) we do agree.

I couldn't have written that better myself.

Independence works, bilateralism works. Russia needed to repair its reputation in its former republics but the west was woeful and adversarial with Russia.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Mar 2022 10.59am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Beanyboysmd's Profile Beanyboysmd Flag 22 Mar 22 11.18am Send a Private Message to Beanyboysmd Add Beanyboysmd as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

in 1946 the Marshall Plan helped to pick up Europe from the ashes of WWII.

yet, in 1990 the Soviet Union collapsed and people starved. No help from the West. Its our own fault that a dictator like Putin appeared. Another Hitler. Starving angry people always vote for Mr Angry.

Get rid of Putin and just another tinpot dictator will take his place.

After the fall of the soviets, the west threw crazy money at Russia and eastern europe trying to keep it afloat. The 2000s and early 2010s saw really fast growth of the russian economy, only really stopped when they took Crimea. Im not very pro west but I dont think the world can be accused of turning its back on Russia. Totally not the version of events that Putin tells people though!

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 22 Mar 22 12.23pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Beanyboysmd

After the fall of the soviets, the west threw crazy money at Russia and eastern europe trying to keep it afloat. The 2000s and early 2010s saw really fast growth of the russian economy, only really stopped when they took Crimea. Im not very pro west but I dont think the world can be accused of turning its back on Russia. Totally not the version of events that Putin tells people though!

Nonsense.

The Soviet union ended in 1991, not the 2000s and after it broke up the economy nose dived...check it out. Yeltsin sold off the nationalised industries to the oligarchs....all under the western eyes with no issues as Yeltsin was their man who would open up Russia.

Please give me a link to this 'crazy money' we gave Russia that you speak of.
Instead of pumping money in the west like a reduced version of the Marshall plan we were quite happy for Russia to falter and decline as it suited their European expansion eastwards. Instead of concerning themselves ensuring that the Russia economy didn't embolden the nationalists (and I'm a nationalist) they took advantage of it.

The Russian economy didn't improve until Putin took over and wrestled power from the oligarchs and the money from the huge gas and wheat resources started flowing back into the economy properly.....that's just a reality, you don't have to listen to Putin, check out the stats on it.....it's not a mystery.

We were foolhardy with a huge nuclear and resource state which had been adversarial for a hundred years......a huge huge opportunity was thrown away.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Mar 2022 12.56pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 22 Mar 22 1.46pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Nonsense.

The Soviet union ended in 1991, not the 2000s and after it broke up the economy nose dived...check it out. Yeltsin sold off the nationalised industries to the oligarchs....all under the western eyes with no issues as Yeltsin was their man who would open up Russia.

Please give me a link to this 'crazy money' we gave Russia that you speak of.
Instead of pumping money in the west like a reduced version of the Marshall plan we were quite happy for Russia to falter and decline as it suited their European expansion eastwards. Instead of concerning themselves ensuring that the Russia economy didn't embolden the nationalists (and I'm a nationalist) they took advantage of it.

The Russian economy didn't improve until Putin took over and wrestled power from the oligarchs and the money from the huge gas and wheat resources started flowing back into the economy properly.....that's just a reality, you don't have to listen to Putin, check out the stats on it.....it's not a mystery.

We were foolhardy with a huge nuclear and resource state which had been adversarial for a hundred years......a huge huge opportunity was thrown away.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Mar 2022 12.56pm)

Putin though didn't "wrestle power back from the oligarchs". He enabled them. His real problems began when oil and gas prices collapsed in 2014. It was then he started to look for military diversions to unrest at home and he started to pursue his long term ambition of restoring Russia's "place in the world".

The idea that we ought to have been conciliatory and placated these ambitions is risible. Any show like that would have been seen as weakness and made things worse.

 

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 22 Mar 22 1.55pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

the slow Eastward creep of NATO toward mother Russia was invisible to most of us.....but very inflammatory to the Russians.

we brought this crisis onto ourselves.

 


7 points from Manchester this season

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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 22 Mar 22 2.05pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

the slow Eastward creep of NATO toward mother Russia was invisible to most of us.....but very inflammatory to the Russians.

we brought this crisis onto ourselves.


"In our time political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible." [Orwell]

Edited by georgenorman (22 Mar 2022 2.14pm)

 

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Online Flag Addiscombe West 22 Mar 22 2.13pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

has 'The West' been sowing the seeds of political dissent in Ukraine for decades ?

using money to stir up the sh1t.

either through NGO political movements & street protests, or through terrorism ?

Seems Puty was trying to pour money into Ukraine for a different reason. No evidence for this but it's an interesting theory

It is well known that Sergey Beseda, head of the FSB 5th-Branch (Ukraine portfolio), has been arrested, along with his deputy, Anatoly Bolyukh. (The FSB is basically the former KGB.) (Beseda is a very high-ranking spy, his rank the equivalent of a U.S. 4-star general, Bolyukh a 3-star.)

It is also known that Beseda and Bolyukh were arrested for something that at first glance seems rather strange--embezzlement from the state. Publicly unknown, but interesting indeed is, the whole of the FSB 5th-Branch is under criminal investigation and many are under arrest for...embezzlement from the state.

Unknown to most is that for years Vladimir Putin has been placing billions of dollars into the 5th-Branch budget for the express and sole purpose of bribing Ukrainian officials, that is, military officers, Ukrainian secret service officers, Ukrainian internal security officers, and politicians. After Yanukovych was ejected in 2014, Putin got serious about bringing Ukraine back into the fold.

Here is the fun part. I am told by people I know (who are still in the game) that for years Sergey Beseda and Anatoly Bolyukh have been embezzling every dime of the bribe budget--literally billions of dollars. And everyone in the 5th-Branch was getting a piece of the action, all the way down to the field operatives who were supposed to be doing all the bribing. It was the perfect crime, spy bribes are paid in cash, and nobody, not even Vladimir Putin was crazy enough to invade Ukraine so nobody in the FSB was ever going to try to collect on the bribes that were never paid.

And this went on for years--since at least 2014.

Until, late last year.

Sometime in the October-November 2021 time-frame, Vladimir Putin called a meeting with a select few people, including Beseda and Bolyukh, and told them that Russia was going to invade Ukraine.

To have seen the look on the faces of Beseda and Bolyukh, because once again, none of the preparatory Ukrainian bribes had ever been paid. Putin had been given reports saying they had been paid, but in reality, not a penny had ever been spent on bribing--Ukrainians.

And as the story goes, Vladimir Putin was depending on--actually counting on--all these bribes having been paid. Because during the meeting, Putin discounted any resistance from Ukraine, saying all he had to do was kick on the door and the whole country would fall--in two days--because for years the FSB 5th-Branch had been doing such a good job at bribing Ukrainians. I shi* you not.

The Russian army and air force signed off on the plan, with the assurance that the Ukrainian military was bribed and would not fight. The plan even included sending Russian police officers in the first wave of attack (to direct and control traffic in Kyiv) because according to the FSB 5th-Branch there was not going to be any resistance.
Beseda and Bolyukh (indeed the whole of the FSB 5th-Branch) now had a problem. A very big problem indeed.

What do spies do when they have a problem (that they want to keep secret from the boss) and they can`t solve all by themselves? They go talk to other spies and ask if they will help them solve their problem. And that is exactly what Sergey Beseda and Anatoly Bolyukh did.

It is well known that US intelligence (CIA) had very fine-grained, exact, precise, perfect, word-for-word intelligence on Putin`s invasion plans very early on in the game. Yep. You guessed it.

The perfect way to keep the secret about the whole FSB embezzlement scheme was to make certain there was no invasion. And the best way to make sure there was no invasion was to tell the CIA that there was going to be an invasion. And that is exactly what happened. Sergey Beseda and Anatoly Bolyukh gave it up. All of it. And kept giving it up, hoping beyond hope that once the secret was out, Vladimir Putin would call the Ukrainian invasion off.

And this is why President Biden (the CIA and MI-6) had months of advance warning and a crystal clear view into Putin`s invasion plans, the FSB 5th-Branch, almost everybody in the 5th-Branch was mainlining intelligence into CIA/MI-6 in a vain attempt to save their lives.

Sergey Beseda and Anatoly Bolyukh?

Yeah, you won`t be seeing them again

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Online Flag Addiscombe West 22 Mar 22 2.16pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

the slow Eastward creep of NATO toward mother Russia was invisible to most of us.....but very inflammatory to the Russians.

we brought this crisis onto ourselves.

I think this is very much a two way street. NATO is/was always going to expand, especially to countries closer to Russia who leading up to and after Crimea would be looking over their shoulders and therefore even more determined to join. The way you talk about it is completely one sided, which is bizarre, and ignores the realities of the situation.

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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