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The Election Thread

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View Willo's Profile Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 04 Nov 19 10.55am Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

We havenít heard Corbynís undeliverable promises yet to damage the Tories in the polls. Actually we have, at their conference, but they were so ridiculous everyone has forgotten. Reducing the working week on equal pay was a cracker. Might work in offices, but not in, erm, working class manual jobs.

Funny how we get called idiots for voting leave when real idiots vote these fools.

There will of course be the usual NHS hogwash and scaremongering which NHS staff have already started complaining about.

 

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Flag The garden of England.(not really) 04 Nov 19 1.49pm Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle


OK, point out where in the Lisbon Treaty it says that a EU army will be formed!

I think you will find it rather specifically says that it won't. but you can prove me wrong.

This will be interesting!

I actually saw Herr Verhofstadt talking about a reason for an EU army just the other day......maybe you should search out the speech on youtube.....or is that beneath you?? Oh just seen youve left HOL so wont see this. are you never coming back??

Edited by the silurian (04 Nov 2019 1.54pm)

 

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Flag The garden of England.(not really) 04 Nov 19 1.51pm Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by elgrande

You really are the most patronising person I think I have read.
You're sense of self importance knows no bounds.

You bang on about other people being blind to other views..and yet you are by far the worst culprit of this.

Someone else can see this....hooray!!

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Nov 19 4.39pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

Someone else can see this....hooray!!

It made debating with him pointless. He wasn't interested in honest debate and logic, he'd twist and turn and you'd end up with the implication 'because he thinks so' and that's it.....just completely disingenuous.

The most closed mind on here and he had the cheek to rally against those who opposed him.

I've had many debates with the left or those more to the left than myself on here and you always respect those who are honest and tackle the concepts.

After a while you know the difference between those who can discuss ideas honestly and those who aren't here for that.

Not that I'm against a troll....a laugh or a p1ss take is fair game because to give it you should take it.

But when it comes to the serious stuff we need people who can actually play the game honestly.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 4.43pm)

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 04 Nov 19 4.51pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

I actually saw Herr Verhofstadt talking about a reason for an EU army just the other day......maybe you should search out the speech on youtube.....or is that beneath you?? Oh just seen youve left HOL so wont see this. are you never coming back??

Edited by the silurian (04 Nov 2019 1.54pm)

Someone saying they want something is not the same as saying it is an inevitability based on a treaty though, is it?

 

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 04 Nov 19 4.54pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

We havenít heard Corbynís undeliverable promises yet to damage the Tories in the polls. Actually we have, at their conference, but they were so ridiculous everyone has forgotten. Reducing the working week on equal pay was a cracker. Might work in offices, but not in, erm, working class manual jobs.

Funny how we get called idiots for voting leave when real idiots vote these fools.

Because undeliverable promises are exclusive to Labour right? The Tories have a good track record on that front - Boris is so damn trustworthy.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Nov 19 5.00pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Someone saying they want something is not the same as saying it is an inevitability based on a treaty though, is it?

They want a 'United States of Europe', that's the overtly obvious direction of travel.

I'm not sure how that works with individual states doing their own thing militarily.

I heard that even Boris's deal puts limits on what we can do militarily anyway.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 5.01pm)

 

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Deleted 04 Nov 19 5.57pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

They want a 'United States of Europe', that's the overtly obvious direction of travel.

I'm not sure how that works with individual states doing their own thing militarily.

I heard that even Boris's deal puts limits on what we can do militarily anyway.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 5.01pm)

I would think that was a given from the outset. If you're dealing with forces like USA and China/Asia, seems reasonable to be in a large group too.
I personally think the bigger issue will be if an EU army is created and, IF, we're still 'in' and don't veto it's creation/membership; what does that mean for NATO? (For the penny pinchers out there, that's £55bn a year. Who does this army answer to? Could we have a situation where our own army is used against us?


 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Nov 19 6.14pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Jway89

I would think that was a given from the outset. If you're dealing with forces like USA and China/Asia, seems reasonable to be in a large group too.
I personally think the bigger issue will be if an EU army is created and, IF, we're still 'in' and don't veto it's creation/membership; what does that mean for NATO? (For the penny pinchers out there, that's £55bn a year. Who does this army answer to? Could we have a situation where our own army is used against us?

All valid observations and indeed were discussed back in the early seventies.

I think the early Tories like Thatcher, who were pro Europe, thought that they could win the battle of ideas and shape the union away from pooling sovereignty beyond trade and other aspects like increased cooperation on security, universities and so on....stuff no one gets too bothered about.

She came to realise however that she was mistaken but unfortunately only after signing a couple of 'ever closer union' treaties. I do see a genuine threat to NATO down the pipe, which are excellent points you make plus a moving away from the US...I can't support either of those directions as particularly wise.

Also, while I support Brexit as a very necessary device for the legitimacy of the democratic process....looking at the deal, which is admittedly better than May's it still is pretty poor.

We are in so deep with the EU that even Boris's deal still makes us far too fiscally affected if the EU collapses....which does kind of make you scratch your head as to the point in that regard......Because personally I don't see the EU as ultimately fiscally solvent.

But Brexit is a principle, that said who knows where we will be ten years down the line.

Probably on our third vote.


Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 6.23pm)

 

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Flag The garden of England.(not really) 04 Nov 19 6.16pm Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Someone saying they want something is not the same as saying it is an inevitability based on a treaty though, is it?

Not at all, we will wait and see though!

 

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Deleted 04 Nov 19 6.30pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

All valid observations and indeed were discussed back in the early seventies.

I think the early Tories like Thatcher, who were pro Europe, thought that they could win the battle of ideas and shape the union away from pooling sovereignty beyond trade and other aspects like increased cooperation on security, universities and so on....stuff no one gets too bothered about.

She came to realise however that she was mistaken but unfortunately only after signing a couple of 'ever closer union' treaties. I do see a genuine threat to NATO down the pipe, which are excellent points you make plus a moving away from the US...I can't support either of those directions as particularly wise.

Also, while I support Brexit as a very necessary device for the legitimacy of the democratic process....looking at the deal, which is admittedly better than May's it still is pretty poor.

We are in so deep with the EU that even Boris's deal still makes us far too fiscally affected if the EU collapses....which does kind of make you scratch your head as too the point......Because personally I don't see the EU as ultimately fiscally solvent.

But Brexit is a principle, that said who knows where we will be ten years down the line.

Probably on our third vote.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 6.16pm)

Very optimistic of you. I think we'll be on our 30th General Election

I personally don't see how we can get any deal that is basically no deal, which is probably why Farage is going for it in the GE. Not that I think his motives are pure, but, he knows that losing is a massive win for him and the Brexit Party.

Nato is an interesting one, as I see them as Harvey Weinstein's assistants, enablers of the USA's foreign policy, which is Imperialism 2.0. I will add that China is Imperialism 3.0 too. I'm sort of with you when it comes to moving away from the 'special relationship' though. Better to be on their good side.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Nov 19 6.48pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Jway89

Very optimistic of you. I think we'll be on our 30th General Election

I personally don't see how we can get any deal that is basically no deal, which is probably why Farage is going for it in the GE. Not that I think his motives are pure, but, he knows that losing is a massive win for him and the Brexit Party.

Nato is an interesting one, as I see them as Harvey Weinstein's assistants, enablers of the USA's foreign policy, which is Imperialism 2.0. I will add that China is Imperialism 3.0 too. I'm sort of with you when it comes to moving away from the 'special relationship' though. Better to be on their good side.

Yep, it's going to be interesting to see how Farage and the Brexit party play this....are they really going to risk an actual Brexit because it isn't a proper one?

Seems like self harming to me, maybe better to pressurize and then drop out in a week or two.

As for the US imperialism point. Essentially I see this as 'nature abhors a vacuum'. Like you state, if it's not the US it's going to be China.

The more 'superpowers' you add to the pot the more you ramp up the risk of confrontation....Especially in a world with rapidly increasing populations and finite resources.

Those who seek to put wedges between us and the US aren't being rational long term, in my view.

 

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