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October 20 2021 2.19am

Coronavirus

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 13 Oct 21 8.48am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

The UK was second best prepared for a pandemic in the world.

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View Helmet46's Profile Helmet46 Flag Croydon 13 Oct 21 8.48am Send a Private Message to Helmet46 Add Helmet46 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Right off the bat I get the sense that you think the role of government is to reduce all deaths down to the smallest possible short term amount...the 'safety above all else' mantra that is the mainstream approach and that politicians should be punished if any decision considered anything else.

If I'm correct about your mindset regarding this then I guess we completely disagree that it's an appropriate or sensible way to run a society (freedoms) and economies (debt) indeed the rest of this decade is going to show that with much higher indirect death tolls......from delays from treatment to suicide to all the rest of them.

Every death is a personal tragedy and I know people who have died during this pandemic. That said, governments have multiple factors to consider in any decision for the long term health of its people but the sociological and economic road it leads them down....it's not just about this generation but the future of the next.

So while I'm no fan of Johnson, when it comes to criticisms related to this pandemic I probably have a completely different set of them.....and the criticisms are just as focused upon the global response as they are the national.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Oct 2021 8.34am)

Not quite. I probably wasnít overly clear in how I articulated my thoughts. I think we need an enquiry to understand what mistakes were made and how to ensure we learn from them (and take ownership - an apology not a kick in as none had done this before). BUT I fully appreciate and accept that decisions had to be made quickly and we absolutely had to keep the economy working. We may not be that far apart. I think thereís a global learning here and the learnings Iíd like to see are how to balance deaths whilst keeping the country open. So PPE manufactured here, continued development of vaccines and treatments etc and a robust plan that considers how we keep going, keep freedoms whilst protecting people going forwards.

I just dislike the constant anti-U.K. sniping from some on here. Itís really bloody jarring.

Edited by Helmet46 (13 Oct 2021 8.55am)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 13 Oct 21 10.08am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Helmet46

Not quite. I probably wasnít overly clear in how I articulated my thoughts. I think we need an enquiry to understand what mistakes were made and how to ensure we learn from them (and take ownership - an apology not a kick in as none had done this before). BUT I fully appreciate and accept that decisions had to be made quickly and we absolutely had to keep the economy working. We may not be that far apart. I think thereís a global learning here and the learnings Iíd like to see are how to balance deaths whilst keeping the country open. So PPE manufactured here, continued development of vaccines and treatments etc and a robust plan that considers how we keep going, keep freedoms whilst protecting people going forwards.

I just dislike the constant anti-U.K. sniping from some on here. Itís really bloody jarring.

Edited by Helmet46 (13 Oct 2021 8.55am)

You sound sensible.

I think when so many people die and more money is spent than on world wars that an inquiry is just about a necessity.

As just what would come from it in terms of accountability and practical lessons I'm my usual skeptical self.

In terms of the scale this pandemic is definitely a black swan event though possibly not quite as black swan going forward (lets hope I'm wrong on that). Indeed, it could be argued that the knowledge that there would be an inquiry and that their actions would be hyper focused upon might have hindered some decisions rather than helped....but that's my speculation.

This was and still is a test for the entire system and as such reveals strengths and weaknesses, some of which we already knew before it happened.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Oct 2021 10.10am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 13 Oct 21 10.45pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Oh lookÖ

The population density in the United Kingdom is 281 per Km2 (727 people per mi2).

The population density in Ireland is 72 per Km2 (186 people per mi2).

You would have to show me the science proving such a massive correlation.

The data does not appear to strongly support you

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 13 Oct 21 10.50pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Helmet46

Not quite. I probably wasnít overly clear in how I articulated my thoughts. I think we need an enquiry to understand what mistakes were made and how to ensure we learn from them (and take ownership - an apology not a kick in as none had done this before). BUT I fully appreciate and accept that decisions had to be made quickly and we absolutely had to keep the economy working. We may not be that far apart. I think thereís a global learning here and the learnings Iíd like to see are how to balance deaths whilst keeping the country open. So PPE manufactured here, continued development of vaccines and treatments etc and a robust plan that considers how we keep going, keep freedoms whilst protecting people going forwards.

I just dislike the constant anti-U.K. sniping from some on here. Itís really bloody jarring.

Edited by Helmet46 (13 Oct 2021 8.55am)

Do not confuse anger at a truly awful current Government with sniping at the UK.

And if you donít believe the Government is poor as hell, why not take take into consideration the words Ďworst public health failure everí. And believe me, I saw that up close and personal.

 

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 13 Oct 21 11.41pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

You would have to show me the science proving such a massive correlation.

The data does not appear to strongly support you

[Link]

Not sure what youíre trying to prove here.

D75F0C94-7C76-4046-A42F-8402DBDF0CA6.png Attachment: D75F0C94-7C76-4046-A42F-8402DBDF0CA6.png (274.71Kb)

 


COYP

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View Helmet46's Profile Helmet46 Flag Croydon 14 Oct 21 6.08am Send a Private Message to Helmet46 Add Helmet46 as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

Do not confuse anger at a truly awful current Government with sniping at the UK.

And if you donít believe the Government is poor as hell, why not take take into consideration the words Ďworst public health failure everí. And believe me, I saw that up close and personal.

Yeah, but hindsight is always easy, as none of us have been through this before. Common sense is a cinch when you are a witness to the outcome. Of course, as I keep saying, they made horrific mistakes - some terrible and costly and I lost people because of it. But with furlough etc many people, other members of my family included, retained both an income and a job. There is one member of my family who has mental health issues and had it not been for furlough, I have no doubt that the loss of his job and his income would have resulted in the loss of his life. You have to have balance. Learn from the mistakes and ensure you polish the positives.

And I would swallow that anger narrative if those posters just had anger at a Govt. as you state. However the same people have spent the last couple of years digging voters out and scoffing at them about their Brexit voting choices - sometimes from homes overseas. So not just the Govt. I get people donít like the Govt - Iím not much of a fan and didnít vote for them or Brexit - but I canít actually remember a Govít I did like. However if my perception is that the posts are constantly sniping at the UK then, rather than take the view that Iím confused, maybe review and consider how posts are written and may be perceived?

Edited by Helmet46 (14 Oct 2021 7.19am)

 

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 17 Oct 21 11.42am Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

I have some scepticism about the approaches adopted by the UK Government and businesses.
I concur that every post-war Government has had criticism. That's why elections are lost..
What does get my goat, is the reliance on science,...scientists on the payroll of the Government. And this continual spouting of 'guided by the science', when in fact it was a balance between population welfare and the economy.
The awarding of contracts, such as PPE and the Test and Trace farce really needs examining in detail.

What is currently gripping my 5hlt, is the promoted Christmas shortages by the media. Someone in the media is getting a pay-off to publicise this, perhaps by manufacturers and retailers, but maybe also by Government to try and stimulate the economy.
Who knows ? I can just see chaos in the High Street in the coming weeks.

 


,.,.,..,

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 17 Oct 21 4.59pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

I have some scepticism about the approaches adopted by the UK Government and businesses.
I concur that every post-war Government has had criticism. That's why elections are lost..
What does get my goat, is the reliance on science,...scientists on the payroll of the Government. And this continual spouting of 'guided by the science', when in fact it was a balance between population welfare and the economy.
The awarding of contracts, such as PPE and the Test and Trace farce really needs examining in detail.

What is currently gripping my 5hlt
, is the promoted Christmas shortages by the media. Someone in the media is getting a pay-off to publicise this, perhaps by manufacturers and retailers, but maybe also by Government to try and stimulate the economy.
Who knows ? I can just see chaos in the High Street in the coming weeks.

Never grip a sh!t!

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 18 Oct 21 9.40am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

A neighbour told me this last night. He got a call from Track and Trace a couple of weeks ago.

Caller: you have to self isolate, now I need you to answer some security questions.

Neighbour: no, I donít know who you are give me some details first. It then went back and forth eventually my neighbour said unless you tell me the details of this COVID contact I am not co-operating.

Caller. You were on a flight from Berlin to London.

Neighbour. Actually I wasnít, I booked a return flight from London but never left the country, never checked in at London or Berlin and never completed a passenger locator form. In short I cancelled the flight so there was no contact. Now I will answer your questions (no point, caller agreed he didnít need to self isolate).

Summary:
From this call it was obvious that Track and Trace had been given basic flight information which was clearly wrong if my neighbour hadnít demanded the details he would have had to self isolate for nothing.

Why the secrecy? He wasnít asking for the personal details of the person in the next seat just simply where and when they were very reluctant to tell him.

What is the point of passport control, check in and the passenger locator form if the data for any of them had been used they wouldnít have contacted him.

So if you are contacted by Track and Trace demand to know the where and the when, if it is correct of course you should self isolate but make them divulge first as their data is unreliable.

PS
My neighbourís son lives in Thailand for a laugh he downloaded the NHS COVID App and within a couple of hours was told he had to self isolate as he had contact in London. What nonsense

 


One more point

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 18 Oct 21 2.20pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

A neighbour told me this last night. He got a call from Track and Trace a couple of weeks ago.

Caller: you have to self isolate, now I need you to answer some security questions.

Neighbour: no, I donít know who you are give me some details first. It then went back and forth eventually my neighbour said unless you tell me the details of this COVID contact I am not co-operating.

Caller. You were on a flight from Berlin to London.

Neighbour. Actually I wasnít, I booked a return flight from London but never left the country, never checked in at London or Berlin and never completed a passenger locator form. In short I cancelled the flight so there was no contact. Now I will answer your questions (no point, caller agreed he didnít need to self isolate).

Summary:
From this call it was obvious that Track and Trace had been given basic flight information which was clearly wrong if my neighbour hadnít demanded the details he would have had to self isolate for nothing.

Why the secrecy? He wasnít asking for the personal details of the person in the next seat just simply where and when they were very reluctant to tell him.

What is the point of passport control, check in and the passenger locator form if the data for any of them had been used they wouldnít have contacted him.

So if you are contacted by Track and Trace demand to know the where and the when, if it is correct of course you should self isolate but make them divulge first as their data is unreliable.

PS
My neighbourís son lives in Thailand for a laugh he downloaded the NHS COVID App and within a couple of hours was told he had to self isolate as he had contact in London. What nonsense

Interesting. Maybe there are data protection issues that make them hesitant to say what they know. This is a good heads up though, because if your neighbour that just gone with it what a waste of time that would've been.

As for the app, to be honest whether right or wrong, after I had Covid I deleted the app on the understanding that it was going to be remarkably difficult to get Covid again for several months and so pointless isolating even if I was pinged.

It's a shame their systems, and indeed the testing (the recent 45k+ false negatives) was not more accurate. At this point with the low deaths and relatively high case numbers though, Im just assuming that the vaccine combined with natural infections has very much done its job. Let's hope they get into gear regarding the booster shots for those most vulnerable.

 

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