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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 27 Feb 23 1.34pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The Brexit weary electorate voted, in a first past the post system, for a Conservative Party led by a lying populist who relied on the marketing slogan skills of an "adviser" in preference to a divided opposition led by a despicable, totally unsuitable, unelectable alternative.

Not a very wise way to deliver what the majority of their representatives truly believed was in their best interests was it?

I want to see decision-making returned to our representatives. I want them to be at the centre of our politics. Not parties. I want them to be free of party whips and able to vote without the fear of deselection or the threat of a lack of advancement. I want them to rely solely on their conscience. I want to see the outside groups, especially the media, unable to influence how they vote. That means they vote as we do. In secret and for that secrecy to be respected and never questioned.

That's the modernisation I want to see. PR runs alongside it because that ensures stability of purpose.

How we get it is a wholly different question!

The electorate, outraged by the filibustering of the Remainer MPs trying to derail Brexit, voted for Johnson. The Labour opposition offered a real choice for the electorate but even the traditional Labour voters wanted Brexit enacted so voted Tory for perhaps the first time in their lives. Then of course the arch Remainers, the Liberals, were totally rejected with even their leader losing her seat.
Parliament and government would never be able to function with a house of non-party MPs. What do you envisage, them all elected a PM and ministers? Some sort of ongoing, on the hoof, set of coalitions that would last five minutes.
How would you ensure freedom of the press in stopping them influencing how we vote – banning media coverage of parliament and making Hansard the only source of parliamentary reporting?
The electorate has every right to know how their MPs are voting, we need more transparency not less.
PR would just ensure constant coalitions with all the problems that it would bring.

Edited by georgenorman (27 Feb 2023 1.37pm)

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 27 Feb 23 2.18pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

The electorate, outraged by the filibustering of the Remainer MPs trying to derail Brexit, voted for Johnson. The Labour opposition offered a real choice for the electorate but even the traditional Labour voters wanted Brexit enacted so voted Tory for perhaps the first time in their lives. Then of course the arch Remainers, the Liberals, were totally rejected with even their leader losing her seat.
Parliament and government would never be able to function with a house of non-party MPs. What do you envisage, them all elected a PM and ministers? Some sort of ongoing, on the hoof, set of coalitions that would last five minutes.
How would you ensure freedom of the press in stopping them influencing how we vote – banning media coverage of parliament and making Hansard the only source of parliamentary reporting?
The electorate has every right to know how their MPs are voting, we need more transparency not less.
PR would just ensure constant coalitions with all the problems that it would bring.

Edited by georgenorman (27 Feb 2023 1.37pm)

If you knew what a filibuster actually was you would know that it wasn't employed in any debate involving Brexit. The electorate were fed up with the whole business and enough were sold on the "Get Brexit done" slogan to produce the result we got. Which was not an endorsement of Brexit at all, but a desire to see the back of it. How manyy regret that now? I suspect a great many of them.

The Labour opposition did not offer a choice. Corbyn refused to back the call for a confirmatory vote, and refused to stand aside for someone who would. Labour held a confused, contradictory position, and it's no wonder at all they failed so badly.

For sure, we would have coalitions if the suggestions I make were adopted, but there would not be wide differences between them. The extremes would remain on the margins, sometimes having to be brought into government, but always with a voice. There would still be parties, but more of them, with more co-operation and less confrontation between them. Coalitions can, and do, work. We just aren't familiar with them.

The electorate have no right to know how their representative is voting! They choose, then they stand back. MPs are not delegates. They are representatives who must be free of all outside influences when making their judgements. I don't see the media being uninvolved in analysing matters, so influencing how we vote. It's how MPs vote that I want to stop being subjected to influence, and we achieve that through privacy. Maybe there can be a 5 or 10 year rule when lists of MPs supporting motions gets published.

 


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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 27 Feb 23 2.57pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

This 'Democracy' thing that leaders keep banging on about preserving. It doesn't seem to suit a lot of people, except those in charge. And that's essentially big business pulling al the strings.

 


"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 27 Feb 23 3.02pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

If you knew what a filibuster actually was you would know that it wasn't employed in any debate involving Brexit. The electorate were fed up with the whole business and enough were sold on the "Get Brexit done" slogan to produce the result we got. Which was not an endorsement of Brexit at all, but a desire to see the back of it. How manyy regret that now? I suspect a great many of them.

The Labour opposition did not offer a choice. Corbyn refused to back the call for a confirmatory vote, and refused to stand aside for someone who would. Labour held a confused, contradictory position, and it's no wonder at all they failed so badly.

For sure, we would have coalitions if the suggestions I make were adopted, but there would not be wide differences between them. The extremes would remain on the margins, sometimes having to be brought into government, but always with a voice. There would still be parties, but more of them, with more co-operation and less confrontation between them. Coalitions can, and do, work. We just aren't familiar with them.

The electorate have no right to know how their representative is voting! They choose, then they stand back. MPs are not delegates. They are representatives who must be free of all outside influences when making their judgements. I don't see the media being uninvolved in analysing matters, so influencing how we vote. It's how MPs vote that I want to stop being subjected to influence, and we achieve that through privacy. Maybe there can be a 5 or 10 year rule when lists of MPs supporting motions gets published.

Perhaps you should invest in a dictionary. Filibuster (verb): “the use of irregular or obstructive tactics by a member of a legislative assembly to prevent the adoption of a measure generally favoured or to force a decision”.
The electorate were certainly fed up with the whole business of Remainer MPs filibustering and kicked them out. If, as you seem to believe, they were Remainers themselves, why did they vote for the only party committed to Brexit.
Of course the Labour party offered a choice, not only on Brexit, but on many other topics. Their left wing manifesto promised many policies that the left on here (and some so called one nation Tories) call for, but again a sensible electorate rejected them.
So an MP stands for election supporting policy X, stands up in parliament and speaks in favour of it and then secretly votes against it! Coalitions can work in times of war when there is an overriding common interest. Countries with coalitions like Belgium, Finland and Italy often have governments that last less than a year and polls in this country show that people think coalition government is weaker, less decisive and confused.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 27 Feb 23 3.59pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

Perhaps you should invest in a dictionary. Filibuster (verb): “the use of irregular or obstructive tactics by a member of a legislative assembly to prevent the adoption of a measure generally favoured or to force a decision”.
The electorate were certainly fed up with the whole business of Remainer MPs filibustering and kicked them out. If, as you seem to believe, they were Remainers themselves, why did they vote for the only party committed to Brexit.
Of course the Labour party offered a choice, not only on Brexit, but on many other topics. Their left wing manifesto promised many policies that the left on here (and some so called one nation Tories) call for, but again a sensible electorate rejected them.
So an MP stands for election supporting policy X, stands up in parliament and speaks in favour of it and then secretly votes against it! Coalitions can work in times of war when there is an overriding common interest. Countries with coalitions like Belgium, Finland and Italy often have governments that last less than a year and polls in this country show that people think coalition government is weaker, less decisive and confused.

I have no idea which dictionary defines a filibuster that way, but it actually means using a long speech to delay proceedings. From the OED:- "a long speech made in a parliament in order to delay or prevent a vote". No MP used such discredited tactics. Everything was done correctly.

Much else of what you write is incomprehensible, so cannot be responded to.

That election was decided solely by the people's boredom with Brexit. Corbyn's left wing policies weren't taken seriously by most and turned others off.

I wouldn't expect an MP to behave dishonestly. If they spoke in favour then they would be expected to vote in favour. Many though don't speak at all. They might explain their party's position at conferences, but not their own. Some say nothing at all. How they all vote has to be between them and their conscience though. That's what we pay them for.

If a coalition doesn't produce a working government what's the problem with another emerging that can? We have the opportunity to anticipate potential difficulties before we accept any changes and can build into that methods to adapt and modify. It's all doable. Our current system evolved, but evolution alone cannot respond quickly enough in our fast changing world.

 


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View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 27 Feb 23 4.49pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I have no idea which dictionary defines a filibuster that way, but it actually means using a long speech to delay proceedings. From the OED:- "a long speech made in a parliament in order to delay or prevent a vote". No MP used such discredited tactics. Everything was done correctly.

Much else of what you write is incomprehensible, so cannot be responded to.

That election was decided solely by the people's boredom with Brexit. Corbyn's left wing policies weren't taken seriously by most and turned others off.

I wouldn't expect an MP to behave dishonestly. If they spoke in favour then they would be expected to vote in favour. Many though don't speak at all. They might explain their party's position at conferences, but not their own. Some say nothing at all. How they all vote has to be between them and their conscience though. That's what we pay them for.

If a coalition doesn't produce a working government what's the problem with another emerging that can? We have the opportunity to anticipate potential difficulties before we accept any changes and can build into that methods to adapt and modify. It's all doable. Our current system evolved, but evolution alone cannot respond quickly enough in our fast changing world.

Collins has it as “to obstruct (legislation) with delaying tactics”, which is exactly what Remainer MPs, aided and abetted by the disgraceful Speaker Bercow, did.

In what way were my points incomprehensible? They were perfectly straightforward - for any reasonable person at any rate.

Yes, the election was largely decided on the Brexit question - not through boredom but though anger and resentment at the actions of the Remainer MPs who they rejected wholesale. Whether Corbyn or anyone else was leader of the opposition, Johnson would have won just as easily as the key issue was Brexit being progressed.

You wouldn’t expect an MP to behave dishonestly – really?!

Coalitions rarely produce working governments that’s the problem.

Edited by georgenorman (27 Feb 2023 4.49pm)

 

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 27 Feb 23 11.04pm Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The Brexit weary electorate voted, in a first past the post system, for a Conservative Party led by a lying populist who relied on the marketing slogan skills of an "adviser" in preference to a divided opposition led by a despicable, totally unsuitable, unelectable alternative.

Not a very wise way to deliver what the majority of their representatives truly believed was in their best interests was it?

I want to see decision-making returned to our representatives. I want them to be at the centre of our politics. Not parties. I want them to be free of party whips and able to vote without the fear of deselection or the threat of a lack of advancement. I want them to rely solely on their conscience. I want to see the outside groups, especially the media, unable to influence how they vote. That means they vote as we do. In secret and for that secrecy to be respected and never questioned.

That's the modernisation I want to see. PR runs alongside it because that ensures stability of purpose.

How we get it is a wholly different question!

So you want the elected representatives to vote as they choose and not reflect the wishes of their electorate if the two are different?

Fair enough if that's what you want, a situation where millions of voters' wishes could be cancelled by a few hundred opposing views.

 


Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 27 Feb 23 11.45pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by HKOwen

So you want the elected representatives to vote as they choose and not reflect the wishes of their electorate if the two are different?

Fair enough if that's what you want, a situation where millions of voters' wishes could be cancelled by a few hundred opposing views.

They are not delegates, sent to parliament with a mandate from the majority who voted for them. They are representatives whose job is to use their time, contacts and conscience to decide what's in the best interests of all the electors in their constituency. Not just those who voted for them.

Together with their colleagues we ask our MPs to decide things on our behalf. We don't have the time, or the opportunity to study all the complex facts, needed to make informed decisions. We are more likely to be influenced by media outlets with agendas.

That's our system, although not everyone seems to believe that. Some indeed in our Parliament who ought to know better.

 


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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 28 Feb 23 12.30am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

They are not delegates, sent to parliament with a mandate from the majority who voted for them. They are representatives whose job is to use their time, contacts and conscience to decide what's in the best interests of all the electors in their constituency. Not just those who voted for them.

Together with their colleagues we ask our MPs to decide things on our behalf. We don't have the time, or the opportunity to study all the complex facts, needed to make informed decisions. We are more likely to be influenced by media outlets with agendas.

That's our system, although not everyone seems to believe that. Some indeed in our Parliament who ought to know better.

Since 1975 there have been 3 UK wide referendums, 2 of which were about the EU. That hardly seems a threat to their delegate status.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 28 Feb 23 12.30am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

Collins has it as “to obstruct (legislation) with delaying tactics”, which is exactly what Remainer MPs, aided and abetted by the disgraceful Speaker Bercow, did.

In what way were my points incomprehensible? They were perfectly straightforward - for any reasonable person at any rate.

Yes, the election was largely decided on the Brexit question - not through boredom but though anger and resentment at the actions of the Remainer MPs who they rejected wholesale. Whether Corbyn or anyone else was leader of the opposition, Johnson would have won just as easily as the key issue was Brexit being progressed.

You wouldn’t expect an MP to behave dishonestly – really?!

Coalitions rarely produce working governments that’s the problem.

Edited by georgenorman (27 Feb 2023 4.49pm)

I found that very strange so looked it up. The definition that I found given by Collins is "A filibuster is a long slow speech made to use up time so that a vote cannot be taken and a law cannot be passed." See:-https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/filibuster

This matches my own understanding perfectly and was not done by any MP in the run up to the 2019 election. Can you post a link please.

You expect me to explain what it is that I cannot understand? Not logical!

I wasn't angry with those brave MPs who argued for a confirmatory second vote. I was proud of them and so too was everyone else I spoke to, other than the hard-line Eurosceptics who were afraid they would lose the prize they thought their tactics was about to deliver.

It was Brexit weariness and the failure of the HoC to grasp the nettle and oust Johnson after he was slapped down by the Supreme Court that led to the debacle that we are now witnessing.

The "oven ready deal" whose ingredients are half rotten and have little nutrition. So bad that we are still trying to repair it.

I don't expect MPs to behave dishonestly. Should they do so they ought be shown the door immediately.

Coalitions can work well. It just requires goodwill and honesty. In the system I am suggesting, one where the MPs are the Kings and privacy protected, that ought to be attainable.

MPs from both sides often get along much better than appears to be the case. They have to put on the theatrics in our current system which demands confrontation.

I would rather have intelligent debate and cooperation than theatrical confrontation.

 


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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 28 Feb 23 12.35am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Since 1975 there have been 3 UK wide referendums, 2 of which were about the EU. That hardly seems a threat to their delegate status.

Oh but it does.

When the most critical decision of all is taken away from them, their expert knowledge ignored and the decision thrown to the winds of chance, The Mail and Facebook, their role becomes almost pointless.

 


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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 28 Feb 23 12.39am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Oh but it does.

When the most critical decision of all is taken away from them, their expert knowledge ignored and the decision thrown to the winds of chance, The Mail and Facebook, their role becomes almost pointless.

One Every 16 years, and counting, represents a major threat? OK.
Maybe hypothetical but would it have been better if MPs had decided on Brexit without asking the country?

 

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