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February 28 2021 6.23am

Wilf not taking the knee

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Feb 21 5.40pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

So you're splitting people into racial groups (as 'black lives matters' does to an extent) but going well beyond that and saying that 'all that matters' in life is making good genetic procreation choices within your own racial group (because that is how 'you are defined')? But that in doing so you're not 'against other groups'.

This implies you believe that procreating with a different race is a very negative thing and should be avoided. So you're against people taking the knee (which is fair enough), but are so far beyond that, you cannot stand the idea of procreation between races? How do you view those around you with mixed race families? What do you think they would feel about what you're saying about their families? You appear to be painting these people as some kind of tribeless genetic missteps, rather than people of family and dignity no different from you or me.

I prefer Hrolfs take. There's more than genes and luck. Work ethic, determination, it all factors in. Where the will is there all of these things can be worked on massively, in much the same way that a person can physically transform. In football for instance it's unlikely that the 'potentially' best footballer has ever even kicked a ball professionally. And such achievement clearly isn't race specific anyway. Of course genes are a factor in aspects of life but it's limiting and inaccurate to imagine that's the full picture. It should be potential (realised or wasted) that we view in others, not an analysis or assumptions of their genetic code. It appears rather egotistical to imagine that your own genes will convey more ability to achieve or excel than anyone elses anyway. It may well be that the opposite is true and you're latching onto an idea of what you feel you represent rather than a reality.

Edited by BlueJay (21 Feb 2021 2.23pm)

I think we have to accept that humans are 'gene vehicles' and that nature and nurture both play a part in behaviour. Genes certainly are the determining force in what we are capable of be it learned or inherited, and the only thing that really matters when you cut through human complexity, is our ability to survive and produce children in a changing environment.

Does this have any baring on race relations? Well only when one group are considered inferior by another.
The truth is that we are all different with varying skills and physical traits. The question is not so much who is superior but who is most adaptable and fertile. This might not appeal to the intellectual mind but it is really all that matters, if indeed you think anything does ultimately.
Of course, Humans themselves are really of little consequence, but their genes live on for many generations.
Am I happy that my genotype and phenotype will be absorbed into nothingness by the march of migration?

No. Although I will be dead, I think about the future and the plight of my descendants. Is that not the only thing that matters to a simple human mind beyond our own selfish little lives?
Should we just be totally nihilistic and say none of it matters?
Since White Europeans only make up around 10% of the world population, mass migrations and interbreeding with other 'races' will cause their eventual absorption and disappearance unless there is a conscious effort to remain separate. Ask the Neanderthal. Oh wait, you can't.
In the case of such separatism, it would not be based on some warped idea about racial superiority or purity but a practical way of allowing the 'White race' to exist at all in the future.
Of course no one will notice the White European disappear, in the same way that no one of the younger generations realises how much Britain has changed in the last 70 years. They only know what they are born into, but that still doesn't change the reality.

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 21 Feb 21 5.57pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


No, I really have to push back on this massive over complication on a post.

I am not a liar or someone who hides their opinions so if you don't mind I'd much prefer it if you didn't put words into my mouth in an effort to sidetrack a post.

While racial topics can be discussed (though I have the impression that you prefer to grandstand objections rather than discuss anything meaningful) the post was confined to its purpose.

As for your idea that there is more than genes and luck, I think you are deluded if you think they aren't the full picture.....mayor cultural influence beyond the superficial can only come from genes.

There is be no other birthplace other than what you and others invent.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Feb 2021 3.55pm)


Hrolf was talking about race as were you. Nobody made you contest the point about having pride in achievements rather than race; you interjected and disagreed highlighting the importance of propagating your groups genes as 'all that matters'. These are simply the realities and questions that come forth from your beliefs. From what you are saying you see it as a distinct negative for a person to procreate with someone of a different race (with a personal emphasis expressed across threads on the importance to yourself of white people doing so).

My partner isn't white. That and our future plans for a baby would appear to be a problem for you. You seem to have plenty of ideas about what our family 'will mean' genetically, and to the country, and so I thought I'd take the time to inform you that you have little reason to believe that my family is lacking anything due to the decisions we've made, rather than it being 'all that matters'. There's more in life than imagining that continuing a racial genetic line is key to achievement and birthright. Should we analyse what genetic 'box of delights' you've passed on, or is that just something that applies to others.. should we instead perhaps accept that judging others on such of criteria is essentially none of our business.

Quote As for your idea that there is more than genes and luck, I think you are deluded if you think they aren't the full picture.....mayor cultural influence beyond the superficial can only come from genes.

It's scientifically unsound to reduce everything to genetics, but its confirmation at least of how 'all in' you've gone. There is no need to selectively dance around your beliefs. They are what they are. Unfortunately.

I'll leave it at that as these things drift on forever otherwise.

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 21 Feb 21 6.16pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I think we have to accept that humans are 'gene vehicles' and that nature and nurture both play a part in behaviour. Genes certainly are the determining force in what we are capable of be it learned or inherited, and the only thing that really matters when you cut through human complexity, is our ability to survive and produce children in a changing environment.

Does this have any baring on race relations? Well only when one group are considered inferior by another.
The truth is that we are all different with varying skills and physical traits. The question is not so much who is superior but who is most adaptable and fertile. This might not appeal to the intellectual mind but it is really all that matters, if indeed you think anything does ultimately.
Of course, Humans themselves are really of little consequence, but their genes live on for many generations.
Am I happy that my genotype and phenotype will be absorbed into nothingness by the march of migration?

No. Although I will be dead, I think about the future and the plight of my descendants. Is that not the only thing that matters to a simple human mind beyond our own selfish little lives?
Should we just be totally nihilistic and say none of it matters?
Since White Europeans only make up around 10% of the world population, mass migrations and interbreeding with other 'races' will cause their eventual absorption and disappearance unless there is a conscious effort to remain separate. Ask the Neanderthal. Oh wait, you can't.
In the case of such separatism, it would not be based on some warped idea about racial superiority or purity but a practical way of allowing the 'White race' to exist at all in the future.
Of course no one will notice the White European disappear, in the same way that no one of the younger generations realises how much Britain has changed in the last 70 years. They only know what they are born into, but that still doesn't change the reality.

I certainly concur with your thoughts that we are all different with varying skills and physical traits. Certainly, it's undeniable that genetics play a part in who we become, but they are clearly only part of the picture. Most people putting their mind and efforts towards something can excel and make something of themselves and that is healthy and aspirational. Nurture, environment, personal motivation, it all factors in. I think that's a better message to propagate than some other beliefs (not you) that dance around calling and viewing other races inferior.

I'm certainly not detached or blind to changes through the generations, so can relate to your views on that. The pace of change can certainly be an issue, and I wouldn't personally care if we had zero immigration going forward. Beyond such measures though the country is what it is and people make the personal decisions that they make. I would never think to make bizarre inferences that two white people should think twice about procreating, so nor do I expect to read the same about others. I am naturally averse to the idea that the only important thing is to propagate genes within racial groups. Other peoples partnering decisions aren't particularly our business.


 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 21 Feb 21 6.25pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

Hrolf was talking about race as were you. Nobody made you contest the point about having pride in achievements rather than race; you interjected and disagreed highlighting the importance of propagating your groups genes as 'all that matters'. These are simply the realities and questions that come forth from your beliefs. From what you are saying you see it as a distinct negative for a person to procreate with someone of a different race (with a personal emphasis expressed across threads on the importance to yourself of white people doing so).

The post was related to race but it's you who wanted to make it about attitudes towards race. I was referring to genes generally.

It's you who have sidetracked it onto attitudes.


Originally posted by BlueJay

My partner isn't white. That and our future plans for a baby would appear to be a problem for you. You seem to have plenty of ideas about what our family 'will mean' genetically, and to the country, and so I thought I'd take the time to inform you that you have little reason to believe that my family is lacking anything due to the decisions we've made, rather than it being 'all that matters'. There's more in life than imagining that continuing a racial genetic line is key to achievement and birthright. Should we analyse what genetic 'box of delights' you've passed on, or is that just something that applies to others.. should we instead perhaps accept that judging others on such of criteria is essentially none of our business.

I'm not interested in you or your partner and while I wish your possible future family well it's hardly any of my business.

So don't strawman me in your attempt to demonise.

As far as my attitudes towards race goes it operates within group average dynamics and statistics and historical rights to land....However, you seek to demonise me by suggesting that I judge individuals. Something I have stated countless times isn't so and something you obviously ignore.

The successful or otherwise choice of a partner will be decided upon the compatibility of individuals involved.

Originally posted by BlueJay

It's scientifically unsound to reduce everything to genetics, but its confirmation at least of how 'all in' you've gone. There is no need to selectively dance around your beliefs. They are what they are. Unfortunately.

I'll leave it at that as these things drift on forever otherwise.

Scientifically unsound? Explain what else there is then that significantly influences culture.

Climate and geography have minor group affects but the reality is that culture in the main comes from genes.

There is nothing else.


Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Feb 2021 6.29pm)

 


'I can't stand innuendo. If I see one in a script I whip it out immediately.' (Kenneth Williams)

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Feb 21 6.36pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

I certainly concur with your thoughts that we are all different with varying skills and physical traits. Certainly, it's undeniable that genetics play a part in who we become, but they are clearly only part of the picture. Most people putting their mind and efforts towards something can excel and make something of themselves and that is healthy and aspirational. Nurture, environment, personal motivation, it all factors in. I think that's a better message to propagate than some other beliefs (not you) that dance around calling and viewing other races inferior.

I'm certainly not detached or blind to changes through the generations, so can relate to your views on that. The pace of change can certainly be an issue, and I wouldn't personally care if we had zero immigration going forward. Beyond such measures though the country is what it is and people make the personal decisions that they make. I would never think to make bizarre inferences that two white people should think twice about procreating, so nor do I expect to read the same about others. I am naturally averse to the idea that the only important thing is to propagate genes within racial groups. Other peoples partnering decisions aren't particularly our business.


Well it is true that people can become 'better' with effort, but that just means that they are not already using the full abilities that their genes made them capable of.
How we use our natural abilities is sometimes determined by the culture we adopt. In some cases our talents come with equal amounts of laziness or indifference.

 

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View Palace Old Geezer's Profile Palace Old Geezer Flag Midhurst 21 Feb 21 7.17pm Send a Private Message to Palace Old Geezer Add Palace Old Geezer as a friend

This post has gone way off course.

It's about Wilf taking a stand against the futile gesture which was supposed to represent support for anti-racist behaviour.

He was brave to make his point. More needs to be done other than kneeling before a football match.

Well done Wilf I say. Looks like he may have started something.

ALL lives matter!

 


Dad and I would watch games on the muddy slope of the Holmesdale Road end, probably at the same time as Roy.

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 21 Feb 21 7.32pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Well it is true that people can become 'better' with effort, but that just means that they are not already using the full abilities that their genes made them capable of.


Yes, and I would say that this true of most people. It's better for people to positively emphasise untapped potential and encourage achievement in all its forms, than to negatively fixate on what they imagine the genetics of said individuals mean. That is a very inadequate way of viewing others.

Though pertaining to this thread, football is a useful example of how varied genetically people can be and still achieve at the very highest level. As a passion an activity anyone can get involved in, it's a great leveller. How many Pelé's or George Best's never kicked a ball, or didn't have the dedication to stick with it. Genetics are only part of the picture. And much of life doesn't fall along simplistic and interpretative racial genetic lines. If we fail to see people beyond that, then quite simply we fail people.

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 21 Feb 21 7.36pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Palace Old Geezer

This post has gone way off course.

It's about Wilf taking a stand against the futile gesture which was supposed to represent support for anti-racist behaviour.

He was brave to make his point. More needs to be done other than kneeling before a football match.

Well done Wilf I say. Looks like he may have started something.

I certainly respect him for being a black player highlighting this perspective. He's right to highlight that in isolation, it's a meaningless token gesture and over time is probably as likely to be a net negative the longer it goes on for. I dare say that he'd have much more practical and workable suggestions for how to improve our communities than a simple 'take the knee'.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 21 Feb 21 7.48pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay


Yes, and I would say that this true of most people. It's better for people to positively emphasise untapped potential and encourage achievement in all its forms, than to negatively fixate on what they imagine the genetics of said individuals mean. That is a very inadequate way of viewing others.

Though pertaining to this thread, football is a useful example of how varied genetically people can be and still achieve at the very highest level. As a passion an activity anyone can get involved in, it's a great leveller. How many Pelé's or George Best's never kicked a ball, or didn't have the dedication to stick with it. Genetics are only part of the picture. And much of life doesn't fall along simplistic and interpretative racial genetic lines. If we fail to see people beyond that, then quite simply we fail people.


Genetics is pretty much most of football ability if not all. It's you who is simplistic and spouting pseudo waffle just on the pretext of being optimistic whilst getting in childish digs.


Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Feb 2021 7.49pm)

 


'I can't stand innuendo. If I see one in a script I whip it out immediately.' (Kenneth Williams)

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 21 Feb 21 8.07pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay


Yes, and I would say that this true of most people. It's better for people to positively emphasise untapped potential and encourage achievement in all its forms, than to negatively fixate on what they imagine the genetics of said individuals mean. That is a very inadequate way of viewing others.

Though pertaining to this thread, football is a useful example of how varied genetically people can be and still achieve at the very highest level. As a passion an activity anyone can get involved in, it's a great leveller. How many Pelé's or George Best's never kicked a ball, or didn't have the dedication to stick with it. Genetics are only part of the picture. And much of life doesn't fall along simplistic and interpretative racial genetic lines. If we fail to see people beyond that, then quite simply we fail people.

It's fine to be positive about people's potential as long as we don't become so obsessed with a desire not be negative that we delude ourselves.
I haven't seen many people with dwarfism playing in the NBA. Not everyone can be a genius or an athlete and as much awe don't like to admit it, all abilities and physical attributes are genetic even if how we use them is sometimes governed by environment. Racial differences do impact on those abilities, and we should not be afraid of that but rather celebrate what each of us is good at. For example, you could not deny that most Nepalese are predisposed to enduring high altitudes.

Anyway this is a long way from the foolishness of taking the knee now, so I'll end there.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (21 Feb 2021 8.09pm)

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag Chatham 21 Feb 21 8.11pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

I certainly respect him for being a black player highlighting this perspective. He's right to highlight that in isolation, it's a meaningless token gesture and over time is probably as likely to be a net negative the longer it goes on for. I dare say that he'd have much more practical and workable suggestions for how to improve our communities than a simple 'take the knee'.

You didnt put the full quote before replying!

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 21 Feb 21 8.33pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


Genetics is pretty much most of football ability if not all. It's you who is simplistic and spouting pseudo waffle just on the pretext of being optimistic whilst getting in childish digs.


Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Feb 2021 7.49pm)

Their ability does not fall along 'racial lines' is my point. Your focus was entirely racial and needlessly sought to differentiate to the point where you were out of nowhere suggesting that people should seek to pass on genes within their own (racial) group. If you don't want people to pass comment on that then it would've been better to omit it.

You may well mock my contributions, but I do actually have an optimistic view of people and I find that for the most part that has served me and others well. You can say what you wish about what you deem to be the value of genetic combinations outside of what is preferable to you personally. I find it disappointing but there we have it; you're free to believe these things. You may paint it as being demonised, but that's just a lack of interest in appreciating what you are actually saying to people who match such crass criteria.

What you said was clearly fairly out there and if you're going to attack the genes others are passing on, have a bit more humility, sense and introspection to consider how utterly foolish a thing that it to say to people.

You've latched onto a comment to stir it back up when it was already said that there was little more to add. I'm sure there are people far more open to these beliefs. They are however unlikely to be very representative of the population.


Edited by BlueJay (21 Feb 2021 8.41pm)

 

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