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January 29 2022 1.57pm

Moving statues

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 08 Jan 22 12.18am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

At some point, if they live long enough everyone is going to catch covid, whether they are vaccinated or not....whether that is from a vaccinated person or unvaccinated person.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2022 12.03am)

That is by no means a certainty. And the longer people can avoid it the more tools we’ll have to keep it at bay and reduce its effects

But almost every unvaccinated person will catch it or have caught it. In the only anti-vax family I know well they all caught it, the mother was taken to hospital in an ambulance and now has severe long covid and the father’s best friend almost died and is now crippled. A nice thing for the daughter to have on her conscience wouldn’t you say?

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 08 Jan 22 12.27am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

That is by no means a certainty. And the longer people can avoid it the more tools we’ll have to keep it at bay and reduce its effects

But almost every unvaccinated person will catch it or have caught it. In the only anti-vax family I know well they all caught it, the mother was taken to hospital in an ambulance and now has severe long covid and the father’s best friend almost died and is now crippled. A nice thing for the daughter to have on her conscience wouldn’t you say?

Well I regard it as pretty much a certainty if they live long enough but you believe whatever you wish.

Sure, people will die from this, though they will die from other causes more.

People who decide to take the flu vaccine will also still die from flu as well as those who don't take the vaccine, just in perhaps smaller numbers.

That's their choice.....you remember, choice Maple?....Mr 'don't label me' yet I get to judge you on personal life decisions.

How very arbitrary.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 08 Jan 22 12.31am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Well I regard it as pretty much a certainty if they live long enough but you believe whatever you wish.

Sure, people will die from this, though they will die from other causes more.

People who decide to take the flu vaccine will also still die from flu as well as those who don't take the vaccine, just in perhaps smaller numbers.

That's their choice.....you remember, choice Maple?....Mr 'don't label me' yet I get to judge you on personal life decisions.

How very arbitrary.

Flu vaccines are less than half as effective as Covid vaccines and have worse side effects. If you didn’t have to would you wear a seat belt?

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 08 Jan 22 12.40am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

Flu vaccines are less than half as effective as Covid vaccines and have worse side effects. If you didn’t have to would you wear a seat belt?

I've taken one flu vaccine since I've been eligible.

A vaccine isn't a seat belt....a big difference between seat belts and vaccines is that some people will react badly to a vaccine, and very unfortunately a statistically small number will die. You seem to want to guilt people into taking vaccines instead of making their own choice out of some 'greater good' mentality.

From what I'm aware the only deaths related to seat belts are indirect as in when they malfunction instead of working...ie the crash still killed the person.

If someone doesn't take a vaccine and dies from that decision, that is their own problem....but importantly it was their personal choice.

If you convince someone to take a vaccine and their body reacts badly then that's on you. I tend to stay out of those decisions....I might give a view but I don't have a hard on about it like you do.

Another difference between a seat belt and a vaccine is that once you are out of the car your personal choice freedom is back....it's limited to being in that car.


Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2022 12.53am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 08 Jan 22 12.51am Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

That is by no means a certainty. And the longer people can avoid it the more tools we’ll have to keep it at bay and reduce its effects

But almost every unvaccinated person will catch it or have caught it. In the only anti-vax family I know well they all caught it, the mother was taken to hospital in an ambulance and now has severe long covid and the father’s best friend almost died and is now crippled. A nice thing for the daughter to have on her conscience wouldn’t you say?

I think we can take things too far and move into a point where a sensible approach turns into getting 'stuck' on something.

Clearly, over 40s not getting vaccinated are most often 'me, me, me' types well above giving a fig about the well being of those around them, including vulnerable family members. We have to remember that especially with Delta and so on vaccination stopped a large number of infections, and passing it on and so was objectively the right thing to do to protect others.

The success of widespread vaccine driven immunity, natural infection and a mild variant that spreads like wildfire change certain aspects of where we're at. We have a strong foundation of protection now and I don't see the idea of going to extreme lengths to avoid Omicron as being a useful way ahead. It offer cross protection against some existing other variants that are 'worse' and so also may do so against what if anything comes next. It's surely almost unavoidable for those who want to live anything like a normal life and based on boosters becoming less effective months in, there is a good argument for not going to lengths to avoid it unless there unless someone is especially susceptible to the point of it being a very clear and significant risk to them.

God only know how many people have already had Omicron by now. Around 10,000,000 wouldn't surprise me considering the numbers with it this week alone. In a month or so we will likely be on the tailend of it, and I see more down sides for the economy, mental health and so on in having got there by dragging it out for months longer. Covid matters, but so do the consequences of society functioning like its the only thing in the world that does. It's a difficult needle to thread. I do appreciate that you've done your best for others during this time and are in a position where you've seen a lot of the damage done.


Edited by BlueJay (08 Jan 2022 2.13am)

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 08 Jan 22 1.09am Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


If you convince someone to take a vaccine and their body reacts badly then that's on you. I tend to stay out of those decisions....I might give a view but I don't have a hard on about like you do.


Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2022 12.49am)

The amount of individuals over the last couple of years who have publicly highlighted the dangers of vaccines and gone on to die due to covid is a lesson in itself.

The problem is you see Maple as pushing the 'vax' and that puts blame on him somehow in instances where people react badly to it, whereas you see yourself as some kind of objective, right thinking individual not pushing anyone in either direction.

Only you've given a vastly disproportionate amount of time to highlighting 'dangers' of the vaccine and that isn't magically only picked up by young people only, even if you do suggest it for certain other groups. It instead helps to create a generalised mistrust of the vaccine in people.

It doesn't help that you yourself opted out of getting vaccinated and passed it off as some kind of 'i know my body' line about a new virus when nobody had a clue how it would affect them. From what you've said you are diabetic and enjoy your food and so rationally speaking you had far more likelihood of the virus than the vaccine damaging you. You made a political choice rather than one in favour of your own health or those around you. So that colours your view.

In any case, we are hopefully at the tailend of this thing in all regards. I can't see the public putting up with more lockdowns, and if a country wants to have specific rules regarding vaccines or testing that's for them. Others may well drop them in a bid to encourage tourism so those characters who dodged the needle may well all get to go on a beano together yet. I hope they take some snaps.


Edited by BlueJay (08 Jan 2022 1.41am)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 08 Jan 22 1.49am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

The amount of individuals over the last couple of years who have publicly highlighted the dangers of vaccines and gone on to die due to covid is a lesson in itself.

Whether they were right or wrong that was their choice.

Originally posted by BlueJay

The problem is you see Maple as pushing the 'vax' and that puts blame on him somehow in instances where people react badly to it, whereas you see yourself as some kind of objective, right thinking individual not pushing anyone in either direction.

Only you've given a vastly disproportionate amount of time to highlighting 'dangers' of the vaccine and that isn't magically only picked up by young people only, even if you do suggest it for certain other groups. It instead helps to create a generalised mistrust of the vaccine in people.

It doesn't help that you yourself opted out of getting vaccinated and passed it off as some kind of 'i know my body' line about a new virus when nobody had a clue how it would affect them. From what you've said you are diabetic and enjoy your food and so rationally speaking you had far more likelihood of the virus than the vaccine damaging you. You made a political choice rather than one in favour of your own health or those around you. So that colours your view.

In any case, we are hopefully at the tailend of this thing in all regards. I can't see the public putting up with more lockdowns, and if a country wants to have specific rules regarding vaccines or testing that's for them. Others may well drop them in a bid to encourage tourism so those characters who dodged the needle may well all get to go on a beanie together yet. I hope they take some snaps.

There are certain points I disagree with.

One is attacking people for their personal choice on vaccines, once the information is out there for them to make decisions. I've highlighted that far more than anything else.

You describe me as giving a 'vastly disproportionate amount of time to highlighting 'dangers' of the vaccine'.....Well perhaps over and above those like you who seem to shy away from any discussion of it? But is this really a fair representation? Or rather isn't it more that those who attack me end up revealing several personal doubts I have in some instances.....am I not allowed doubts?

What is more true is that I criticise those who appear willing to restrict people's freedom to make personal choices....oh and of course covid policies.

What I certainly do attack...and if I remember correctly you defended this position....are those who defended the taking of vaccines for the young and healthy when they never had a personal requirement for them.

That's vampirism and there should never have been coercion over personal free choice.

Also I find this description of personal choice as 'selfish' slightly bewildering...if I were working in a care-home perhaps but like I say, everyone's going to get it anyway.....I've answered this previously but it's quite something really.

As for me, yes my decision is partly political but not fully by any means.....I will review the situation at some point this year.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2022 2.37am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 08 Jan 22 2.46am Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

There are certain points I disagree with.

One is attacking people for their personal choice on vaccines, once the information is out there for them to make decisions. I've highlighted that far more than anything else.

You describe me as giving a 'vastly disproportionate amount of time to highlighting 'dangers' of the vaccine'.....What over and above those like you who seem to shy away from any discussion of it? Is this really a fair representation? Or rather isn't it more that those who attack me end up revealing several personal doubts I have in some instances.....am I not allowed doubts?

What is more true is that I criticise those who appear willing to restrict people's freedom to make personal choices....oh and of course covid policies.

What I certainly do attack...and if I remember correctly you defended this position....are those who defended the taking of vaccines for the young and healthy when they never had a personal requirement for them.

That's vampirism and there should never have been coercion over personal free choice.

Also I find this description of personal choice as 'selfish' slightly bewildering...if I were working in a care-home perhaps but like I say, everyone's going to get it anyway.....I've answered this previously but it's quite something really.

As for me, yes my decision is partly political but not fully by any means.....I will review the situation at some point this year.


Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2022 2.08am)

We don't live in a bubble though. For earlier variants especially, vaccines were rather successful with regard reducing transmission. Certainly where people put themselves out there at the height of it, didn't get vaccinated, then were around vulnerable people who caught covid from them, that isn't some kind of freebie. Point being, in not getting vaccinated people were clearly often putting others at unnecessary, increased risk.

There are significant numbers of unvaccinated people in hospitals even when the vast majority of people are vaccinated. It tales seconds. Vaccinated people are generally in hospital due to being unfortunate (they've done all they could and sick anyway). Unvaccinated people often due to completely misjudging risk (doing nothing to protect themselves from something that incorrectly assumed would not trouble them).

I certainly agree that there's a difference between adults and kids getting vaccinated. That latter should come down to a family decision, and i can well understand people not bothering unless there is an especially good reason to have it.

The vaccine is a big achievement that has saved countless lives (and reduced the seriousness of infection for a great many which can't be bad). But yes ultimately I agree it should be for the individual, unlike the new approach in Italy etc. I'm just pleased so many decided to get it and see it as a valuable tool at our disposal, even if like most vaccines or drugs it's imperfect.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 08 Jan 22 3.05am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

We don't live in a bubble though. For earlier variants especially, vaccines were rather successful with regard reducing transmission. Certainly where people put themselves out there at the height of it, didn't get vaccinated, then were around vulnerable people who caught covid from them, that isn't some kind of freebie. Point being, in not getting vaccinated people were clearly often putting others at unnecessary, increased risk.

There are significant numbers of unvaccinated people in hospitals even when the vast majority of people are vaccinated. It tales seconds. Vaccinated people are generally in hospital due to being unfortunate (they've done all they could and sick anyway). Unvaccinated people often due to completely misjudging risk (doing nothing to protect themselves from something that incorrectly assumed would not trouble them).

I certainly agree that there's a difference between adults and kids getting vaccinated. That latter should come down to a family decision, and i can well understand people not bothering unless there is an especially good reason to have it.

The vaccine is a big achievement that has saved countless lives (and reduced the seriousness of infection for a great many which can't be bad). But yes ultimately I agree it should be for the individual, unlike the new approach in Italy etc. I'm just pleased so many decided to get it and see it as a valuable tool at our disposal, even if like most vaccines or drugs it's imperfect.

I certainly supported the development of vaccines for the illness. However, I never thought I would be practically guilt tripped into taking it. Let alone it becoming this authoritarian dystopia that has happened in some places.

It's good that the vaccines are there for the elderly and vulnerable and indeed anyone else who wants to take them. I have zero issue with people deciding to take a vaccine.

It's all gone a bit weird I think....I know I've made this point before but there are plenty of people in hospital because they smoked or drank too much or ate too many burgers.

Some people box, some people drive fast cars, climb mountains....Is it sensible, probably not....is it freedom? Yeah.

I think we prefer a world where people have personal autonomy...though I realise that it's not always cut and dried

I may take a vaccine at some point but in honest truth if I assess my health there are much higher risks of death elsewhere....and I haven't exactly lived my life in fear of them either.....Foolish...perhaps but also honest to what I enjoy in life...But yeah, new year...new efforts....though this shoulder operation has to be focused upon because that's close and reasonably serious because it's bone infected.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2022 3.08am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 08 Jan 22 8.00am Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

I've never really liked statues. You can bin all of them, as far as I care. That might be an opinion shared by a few. They always make me feel a bit uneasy, as they often look like macabre caricatures. and their location is always prone to problems of site.

I'd rather legacy of inspirational individuals was kept alive in books/internet, machinery, structures (museums, if necessary) and social fabric, etc, etc.

Edited by Forest Hillbilly (08 Jan 2022 8.01am)

 


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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 08 Jan 22 8.09am Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

I did like the Queen Victoria statue in Warrior Square, St Leonards. If only because after big nights out, it was newly decorated with topical attire.
See her impersonation of The Pet Shop Boys.

She was not amused.

queeen vic and cone.JPG Attachment: queeen vic and cone.JPG (789.07Kb)

 


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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 08 Jan 22 9.16am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Everyone I have seen die or get long covid caught the virus from someone in their 20s.

 

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